Against Modding?

olenkarhu
EE Enlisted: 2012-07-04
2013-03-18 14:21 , edited 2013-03-18 14:22 by olenkarhu
That's against the very purpose, idea of a traditional Battlefield game. The way you got your userbase, which is now many millions of people. The exact thing that helped to create bf2 (I'm talking about the Bf1942 desert mod team, who were fired shortly before bf2 release). You got your userbase through PC gamers, which has now been extended to consoles, and now - no mod support? No dev tools? This is plain illogical, many more people would play bf3, or any battlefield game for that matter if modding could've been possible. Many great games: All elder scrolls, ArmA games, even warcraft III and Starcraft II have a map editor. Their community, the gamers that play those games still do it, after so many years of the game's release. If game has no mods, it will be forgotten as soon as the next title in the series comes out. A good example is COD4. It had somewhat modability, and I still play it occasionally, and many people still do. But the later call of duty titles are just shit. I also loved Bf2: Project Reality mod, and many other bf2 mods. There are still plenty of players playing bf2 (check it out if you don't believe) and I'm sure that this could've only happened thanks to modding. Even those who play without mods, they still are happy the userbase of that certain game is alive.
Don't be unpractical. Make more money, that way. Not the *omg, what if we made everything based on consoles* way. At least then you'll be loved more.
I meant only to send a message, or ask a question. I want my voice to be heard.
Now that dice finally got bf4 out, perhaps they could do us a favor and add a patch with the option to remove the shitty blue filter from bf3?
pkD-jaNsen
DE Enlisted: 2011-10-24
2013-03-18 14:23 , edited 2013-03-18 14:31 by pkD-jaNsen
why should people buy dlcs if modders deliver better quality for free. there is your answer.
i would even pay for modtools. also arma shows that impletmenting modding tools/support can increase sales significantly.
EA is customer unfriendly, short sighted and simply bad atm.
By trying to imitate activision`s strategy they strip the games of all attributes that made them actuallyy good and worthwhile playing, turning them into soulless continuation products, which simply suck.
Why is BF failing?
1. DICE simply sucks at getting their shit together (organizing, prioritizing, coordinating, etc)
2. EA pushes products out
olenkarhu
EE Enlisted: 2012-07-04
2013-03-18 14:25 , edited 2013-03-18 14:35 by olenkarhu
Acer_jaNsen said:
why should people buy dlcs if modders deliver better quality for free. there is your answer. i would even pay for modtools. also arma shows that impletmenting modding tools/support can increase sales significantly.
EA is customer unfriendly, short sighted and simply bad atm.
By trying to imitate activision`s strategy they strip the games of all attributes that made them actuallyy good and worthwhile playing, turning them into soulless continuation products, which simply suck.
Why is BF failing?
1. DICE simply sucks at getting their shit together (organizing, prioritizing, coordinating, etc)
2. EA pushes products out

But the point is, if modders deliver better quality, then more people will buy the game.
It would also motivate DICE to make VERY HIGH quality DLC's, which would be great for everyone. Also, how would you explain the fact that Skyrim's Dawnguard and Dragonborn DLC's sold relatively well? I don't want this thread closed, I actually want somebody from DICE (Not EA lol) reply to this. And yes, everybody hates soulless continuation products, everyone can take a look at the call of duty series. Activision does the exact same shit. Funny how BLOPS 2 didn't get a single GOTY, and neither will bf4 if they continue that stripping/console direction. Modding is the very soul and heart of PC gaming.
Now that dice finally got bf4 out, perhaps they could do us a favor and add a patch with the option to remove the shitty blue filter from bf3?
pkD-jaNsen
DE Enlisted: 2011-10-24
2013-03-18 14:37
:D I wrote the same thing further down. It is as i said that EA is very short sighted. For Bf3 they invited a number of people for testing. There literally no changes from that point to the beta. also using the beta as demo is shit as well. they need to revise their whole product policy which is not going to happen.
Right thing to do would be:
Invite a sound mix of professionals to test and make suggestions
start an alpha
start a beta
and work on the input.

The game holds great potential even though its the XY continuation. But they really need to step up their work.
olenkarhu
EE Enlisted: 2012-07-04
2013-03-18 14:42
Acer_jaNsen said:
:D I wrote the same thing further down. It is as i said that EA is very short sighted. For Bf3 they invited a number of people for testing. There literally no changes from that point to the beta. also using the beta as demo is shit as well. they need to revise their whole product policy which is not going to happen.
Right thing to do would be:
Invite a sound mix of professionals to test and make suggestions
start an alpha
start a beta
and work on the input.

The game holds great potential even though its the XY continuation. But they really need to step up their work.

Exatly. Imo EA has only been bad for DICE, if DICE was let a slightly larger degree of freedom, the end product would've ended up being better. Also, I agree with you on beta.
Now that dice finally got bf4 out, perhaps they could do us a favor and add a patch with the option to remove the shitty blue filter from bf3?
lllSwayzelll
CA Enlisted: 2011-10-24
2013-03-18 14:44
Isn't half of DICE's team former BF modders? I guess their hiring pool has become very shallow.
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McTash
Enlisted: 2011-10-29
2013-03-18 14:46
It doesn't look like Frostbite 2 was designed with modding in mind. It supports a wide variety of genres. This presentation from DICE shows the build process for a frostbite 2 game: http://dice.se/wp-content/uploads/Scaling-the-Pipeline.pdf [dice.se]

To my laymans eye it seems that there are a lot of build steps that are highly optimized and require a multitude of tools to support the build process. I'm not sure how you would get past the need for these tools in order to release mod tools.
thepw1
Enlisted: 2012-03-10
2013-03-18 14:48 , edited 2013-03-18 14:53 by thepw1
you seem to be mis lead. Let me clue you in on something.

When EA releases keys for alpha/beta

The game is extensional done, they aren't going to do much else with it!
The only thing they are concerned about at that stage is server load/stability that is all!

That is why after alpha and beta, the sounds events and shit all got butchered!
They didn't fix anything from alpha/beta except nuttered it to run better on servers!

They don't care about balance, they don't care about map bugs/glitches.

They don't care about what the public beta and alpha tester input is!

there only concern from that point is making it JUST stable enough for sales. That is all!

The only reason people get alpha and beta is so they can use them to hype it up. Free marketing


That flow Chart doesnt look all that complicated to me at all, but im in the industry and have modded for many many many yrs prior.

Many games use several tools to post process the art work/code and bundle.

to the average gamer that may look like a lot, guernetee there are .bat and .exe to get most of that in place, click here, click there, done sort of thing!
LevelEndBaddie
GB Enlisted: 2011-10-25
2013-03-18 15:06 , edited 2013-03-18 18:35 by LevelEndBaddie
I can see EA's standpoint as a business it's about money and who doesn't want to make money?

people use Arma a poor example, it's not very popular and it's mods lack polish (even the game does) the same with source mods, not polished, but valve make their money from selling other peoples IPs. why would customers continue to buy a game for mods, you already have the game you've extended the games life for a few years there's no need to buy the new one then EA lose profit.

EA also provide BF games for console where there isn't really a mod community, so console get BF4 and PC still play a modded BF3 how does this fit with a business that has an aim to be as profitable as possible?

The only thing BF3 needed as far as modding goes was a halo game settings editor and map maker yet this wouldn't fit with the whole ranked game type. It's only self entitlement that says "we must have modding tools" why must you? It's their IP and the way they feed their families (i'm not saying the fat cats at the top deserve all their pennies).

Our grandfathers fought and died for capitalism yet everyone cries when a company sets out to become profitable or more profitable, it's double standards really.
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Bombdig
CA Enlisted: 2011-11-26
2013-03-18 15:11 , edited 2013-03-18 15:12 by Bombdig
"why should people buy dlcs if modders deliver better quality for free."

This is nonsense..

First off since people are sooo uptight about the stats system, mods will be "unranked" and people WILL still buy the official content in order to play ranked.

Second, i would LOVE to see some community made map that has the same polish as found on professionally developed maps. Unfortunately its very rare to see. Even when Valve did a mapping contest for TF2, valve built the base map first and let people theme it.

Third, all mods will do is add valuable content to the game, FOR FREE, making their game more popular, driving base game purchases, which will in turn drive DLC purchases. And what investment did EA make for this increase in profit, NOTHING, ZERO, ZIP. Its free money for them.

Fourth... In TF2(on ones own client) you can skin any item you please, you can add new hat models till the cows come home. YET people still pay HUNDREDS OF DOLLARS for Unusual Hats... Despite the ability to just put them on their character whenever they please.


The whole idea that DLC cannot be sold if there are mod tools is preposterous.
ExProsiveGaming
CH Enlisted: 2012-01-19
2013-03-18 15:13
Mods make the games live on for many years. That would decrease sales for the next battlefield game.
That's the main reason modding is not allowed.
It amazes me how people defend their arguments these days. They do it, not because they believe their argument is correct, but because they believe they are.
R0gueWarrior
CA Enlisted: 2011-10-24
2013-03-18 15:13 , edited 2013-03-18 15:14 by R0gueWarrior
Why not make it a MONTHLY user fee? Then those who wish to make maps, submit them to DICE, and if needed, changes could be made by the Licensee.

There was a competition for us to submit maps back in the beginning, they were voted on....... BUT NOTHING HAPPENED!

I would be interested in seeing this sort of thing happening, Its a Win/Win for both DICE and modders!!
Did I mention my BF4 has worked Flawlessly since initial Release!
pkD-jaNsen
DE Enlisted: 2011-10-24
2013-03-18 15:14
thepw1 said:
you seem to be mis lead. Let me clue you in on something.

When EA releases keys for alpha/beta

The game is extensional done, they aren't going to do much else with it!
The only thing they are concerned about at that stage is server load/stability that is all!

That is why after alpha and beta, the sounds events and shit all got butchered!
They didn't fix anything from alpha/beta except nuttered it to run better on servers!

They don't care about balance, they don't care about map bugs/glitches.

They don't care about what the public beta and alpha tester input is!

there only concern from that point is making it JUST stable enough for sales. That is all!

The only reason people get alpha and beta is so they can use them to hype it up. Free marketing


That flow Chart doesnt look all that complicated to me at all, but im in the industry and have modded for many many many yrs prior.

Many games use several tools to post process the art work/code and bundle.

to the average gamer that may look like a lot, guernetee there are .bat and .exe to get most of that in place, click here, click there, done sort of thing!


ye thats exactly my point. the beta is no beta, its a demo. the fixes are minimal and thats the true problem.
BF3 all in all is basically a horrible game. the netcode is shit. it was shit in bf2 but there it was pretty random. in bf3 its the same shit for everyone. BC2 actually had a quite decent hitreg. the mapdesign is horrible and without much thouhgt. especially the way it changes for higher player numbers is a joke.
If you compare mapdesign from bf2 to bf3 you come to the conclusion that it is total garbage.
the series lives of its complexity which is given up for the sake of bringing in new people.
sadly enough in hte whole gaming industry the factor of frustration as tool of motivating and binding people has been neglected for the past 4-5 years while it was widely used before. I dont mind simplification but there has to enough room for skill differentiation and a learning curve rewarding playing alot or simply posessing skill, aim, etc.
In Bf3 with very little effort you can consider yourself average and this appeasement thought that everyone with 0m game time is supposed to feel like he is at least average is killing games, especially complex ones like BF.
Bombdig
CA Enlisted: 2011-11-26
2013-03-18 15:16
ExProsiveGaming said:
Mods make the games live on for many years. That would decrease sales for the next battlefield game.
That's the main reason modding is not allowed.



You can mod L4D1.... Didnt stop L4D2 becoming a best seller.
Xzidia
NO Enlisted: 2012-12-25
2013-03-18 15:35
I'm certain EA is behind this. Look at how much they lied about SimCity and when a modder found out that it was actually possible to play it offline, they said it didn't fit their "vision". However instead of saying this in the first place they kept denying that it was possible to achieve a offline mode and that the servers were running your game so it would be impossible to change it to offline. (which turned out to be false).

Dice have said many weird things these past years:

"Modding is a declining trend"

"We feel that the Frostbite 2 engine will be too complicated for mods"

"I also dont want to make the experience different on PC and consoles, we are making the same game for all SKUs."

Denying that modding would be impossible and that if the consoles can't have mod tools then so shouldn't the PC. But as i said, I'm sure its EA that is at work here because who would want to sell a product that will last for years and will prevent buyers from buying their next installment/ model that comes out the next year.
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thepw1
Enlisted: 2012-03-10
2013-03-18 15:56
i know myself and many other modders would actually pay for a mod licence! XXX amount of dollars for lets say 1yr subscription, DRM etc etc,,,

People would still buy there new DLCs, xpaks like mentioned, they want there e-dicks "cough" i meant stats! CODers

But the die harders would be playing the mods im sure, as they would bring back the game play that was Battlefield prior to the MonkEAy
KGBkame
US Enlisted: 2011-10-28
2013-03-18 16:14
they are just scared someone will make a better mod than the game itself. for example.

AIX 2.0 for BF2 was so much better than BF2 vanilla.

http://www.aixtended.com/ [aixtended.com]

iamtheheadhunter, Ti_GER arn354, and clivewill are 3 of the top names i can think of that should receive mods tools for BF3.
DarkLord7854
SE Enlisted: 2011-10-24
2013-03-18 16:58 , edited 2013-03-18 16:59 by DarkLord7854
McTash said:
It doesn't look like Frostbite 2 was designed with modding in mind. It supports a wide variety of genres. This presentation from DICE shows the build process for a frostbite 2 game: http://dice.se/wp-content/uploads/Scaling-the-Pipeline.pdf [dice.se]

To my laymans eye it seems that there are a lot of build steps that are highly optimized and require a multitude of tools to support the build process. I'm not sure how you would get past the need for these tools in order to release mod tools.

Correct!

Building just a map requires jumping between ~20-30 different programs, and that doesn't even take into account the process of getting it into the game to test/play it, which requires the game source as everything is highly optimized and packaged for incredibly low loading times, despite the massive size of the map data and assets.

Everything, down to the way the game is compiled, is built and optimized for maximum performance.
McTash
Enlisted: 2011-10-29
2013-03-18 17:10 , edited 2013-03-18 17:14 by McTash
DarkLord7854 said:
McTash said:
It doesn't look like Frostbite 2 was designed with modding in mind. It supports a wide variety of genres. This presentation from DICE shows the build process for a frostbite 2 game: http://dice.se/wp-content/uploads/Scaling-the-Pipeline.pdf [dice.se]

To my laymans eye it seems that there are a lot of build steps that are highly optimized and require a multitude of tools to support the build process. I'm not sure how you would get past the need for these tools in order to release mod tools.
Correct!

Building just a map requires jumping between ~20-30 different programs, and that doesn't even take into account the process of getting it into the game to test/play it, which requires the game source as everything is highly optimized and packaged for incredibly low loading times, despite the massive size of the map data and assets.

Everything, down to the way the game is compiled, is built and optimized for maximum performance.


Thnks for response. Given the outcry for mod tools since BFBC2 and the incoming next gen consoles (which are basically multicore pc's for all intents and purposes) can you see a future where mod support is provided again? Surely the advent of multicore processing in both the pc and console sphere will allow for a simpler build process as the true benefits of parallel processing are realized. Or is the current version of Frostbite to far gone and would require a ground up rewrite?
Kakepwnz
US Enlisted: 2011-10-30
2013-03-18 17:11 , edited 2013-03-18 17:13 by Kakepwnz
DarkLord7854 said:
Correct!

Building just a map requires jumping between ~20-30 different programs, and that doesn't even take into account the process of getting it into the game to test/play it, which requires the game source as everything is highly optimized and packaged for incredibly low loading times, despite the massive size of the map data and assets.

Everything, down to the way the game is compiled, is built and optimized for maximum performance.


If it's optimized for maximum performance, then how come in a lot of instances i get massive frame rate drops just standing in the middle of an area with nothing going on? Specifically Grand Bazaar, If I stand in the alleyway tunnel things next to the RU spawn, my FPS drops 15-20. I think DICE just made an engine that they have no idea how to work with properly. I have even more reason to believe this considering the multitude of patches that have fixed nothing and broke even more.

Edit: No offense to you, I'm just extremely frustrated with the direction you guys are taking battlefield. The game was incredibly balanced at launch and now, it's incredibly inconsistent. From the 1-foot-fall deaths, to jets exploding for no reason in mid-air, all the way across the board to everything being nerfed because the CoD-kids demand so.
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