Against Modding?

thepw1
Enlisted: 2012-03-10
2013-03-18 17:12 , edited 2013-03-18 17:17 by thepw1
Come on Darkloard, I know that you know its really not that complicated.

there is a respiratory built on a server where everything lies as raw data, and its click here click there as long as the respo is intact.

even if there is 20 respos, its nothing the modding community can not grasp. Its common to use 20+apps to get the job done


step 1
step 2
step 3
....
step 30

Oh that is to complicated. 0_0
Fearpoint1
US Enlisted: 2011-10-24
2013-03-18 17:15 , edited 2013-03-18 17:15 by Fearpoint1
DarkLord7854 said:
McTash said:
It doesn't look like Frostbite 2 was designed with modding in mind. It supports a wide variety of genres. This presentation from DICE shows the build process for a frostbite 2 game: http://dice.se/wp-content/uploads/Scaling-the-Pipeline.pdf [dice.se]

To my laymans eye it seems that there are a lot of build steps that are highly optimized and require a multitude of tools to support the build process. I'm not sure how you would get past the need for these tools in order to release mod tools.
Correct!

Building just a map requires jumping between ~20-30 different programs, and that doesn't even take into account the process of getting it into the game to test/play it, which requires the game source as everything is highly optimized and packaged for incredibly low loading times, despite the massive size of the map data and assets.

Everything, down to the way the game is compiled, is built and optimized for maximum performance.


Translation: It's proprietary technology we've invested a huge amount of money into and we don't want competitors anywhere near our tech.

This is proven further by how EA has essentially designed many future franchise installments around Frostbyte technology when it's been show for years that it's tediously difficult for developer to use and for consumers to "patch".

Lets be honest here.
Shadowplay, G-Sync, PhysX Flex. Your move, AMD...
thepw1
Enlisted: 2012-03-10
2013-03-18 17:18
Fearpoint1 said:
DarkLord7854 said:
McTash said:
It doesn't look like Frostbite 2 was designed with modding in mind. It supports a wide variety of genres. This presentation from DICE shows the build process for a frostbite 2 game: http://dice.se/wp-content/uploads/Scaling-the-Pipeline.pdf [dice.se]

To my laymans eye it seems that there are a lot of build steps that are highly optimized and require a multitude of tools to support the build process. I'm not sure how you would get past the need for these tools in order to release mod tools.
Correct!

Building just a map requires jumping between ~20-30 different programs, and that doesn't even take into account the process of getting it into the game to test/play it, which requires the game source as everything is highly optimized and packaged for incredibly low loading times, despite the massive size of the map data and assets.

Everything, down to the way the game is compiled, is built and optimized for maximum performance.
Translation: It's proprietary technology we've invested a huge amount of money into and we don't want competitors anywhere near our tech.

This is proven further by how EA has essentially designed many future franchise installments around Frostbyte technology when it's been show for years that it's tediously difficult for developer to use and for consumers to "patch".

Lets be honest here.


FOR TRUTH!
R0gueWarrior
CA Enlisted: 2011-10-24
2013-03-18 17:22
DarkLord7854 said:
McTash said:
It doesn't look like Frostbite 2 was designed with modding in mind. It supports a wide variety of genres. This presentation from DICE shows the build process for a frostbite 2 game: http://dice.se/wp-content/uploads/Scaling-the-Pipeline.pdf [dice.se]

To my laymans eye it seems that there are a lot of build steps that are highly optimized and require a multitude of tools to support the build process. I'm not sure how you would get past the need for these tools in order to release mod tools.
Correct!

Building just a map requires jumping between ~20-30 different programs, and that doesn't even take into account the process of getting it into the game to test/play it, which requires the game source as everything is highly optimized and packaged for incredibly low loading times, despite the massive size of the map data and assets.

Everything, down to the way the game is compiled, is built and optimized for maximum performance.



I am sorry, But I do not believe this Statement one bit! 20-30 programs is real hard to beleive. Can you name them please!

Oh what If I wanted to purchase a copy of the FB engine to make "Insert Name Here" game, I am sure that it;s not to hard for Victory Games, or Bioware to use.... What makes EA/Dice so CERTAIN that is beyond the general Public's scope of intelligence?
Did I mention my BF4 has worked Flawlessly since initial Release!
thepw1
Enlisted: 2012-03-10
2013-03-18 17:27 , edited 2013-03-18 17:30 by thepw1
@ R0gueWarrior,
by chance did you mod for bf2?
POE2 to be more specific? If you did we might just know each other . ;)

I know what Demize99's been up to, Wonder If Lex is still working for EA, I know senior is working on phone app games these days.

Yourself? if you are who i think you are.
DarkLord7854
SE Enlisted: 2011-10-24
2013-03-18 18:27
McTash said:
Thnks for response. Given the outcry for mod tools since BFBC2 and the incoming next gen consoles (which are basically multicore pc's for all intents and purposes) can you see a future where mod support is provided again? Surely the advent of multicore processing in both the pc and console sphere will allow for a simpler build process as the true benefits of parallel processing are realized. Or is the current version of Frostbite to far gone and would require a ground up rewrite?


Nobody has ever said, nor can I imagine anyone saying, that they flat out don't want mod tools (quite the opposite in fact, it's a regular topic of discussion). It's not even a matter of processing power, even though the rigs we use are constantly upgraded, and the Frostbite devs burn out graphics card on a weekly basis.

The issue is pretty straight forward, though complicated and difficult to address. Frostbite is extremely complicated and relies on a lot of licensed technologies that are not easily (even by throwing lots of money at them) re-licensed for public consumption. This is further compounded by the fact that it's not a single editor, and thus can't be released as an easy-install do-everything package.

Can it be made into such a package? Of course, anything is possible, but the time frame and resources required for it is pretty tremendous. The package would then also have to be maintained, documented, have very thorough testing, and some level of support provided. The game would also have to have mod endpoints to support custom packages being added to it, as well as ways to ensure anti-cheat and such are handled properly. We'd probably also want to make sure there's an easy and convenient way to distribute and maintain these mods, similar to Steam Workshop, where authors can upload their creations, receive comments, ratings, etc. The server software would also have to be upgraded to support these mods, followed by updating the backend to allow searching and finding of these servers, plus provide a way for server owners to actually load the content into their server as currently our ToS does not allow any viewing/editing/modifying of the server files.

It's not a simple thing as just dumping all our internal tools and letting people figure things out. I don't think anybody thinks that our tools are beyond the comprehension of everyone, because we obviously use it, and we are all human (last I checked anyways..). But there is a massively steep learning curve because they are just that, dev tools.

I'll give you an example. I wanted to play around a bit with making a map and poke around Frostbite's internals and see what kind of cool map I could make. I used to do maps for older games (AvP2, Starcraft, Bf1942), so I figured "can't be that hard". I never even got to the point of creating a basic empty map before being completely overwhelmed with the amount of options, programs, and data required to begin work before I had to give up and go bother some of the senior mappers and get a crash course on everything I needed to know to set things up. I'm sure I could have figured it out eventually, but the steep entry bar could easily turn away some otherwise fantastic community mappers just because they didn't have the time available to learn things.

So to summarize, yes, anything is possible given enough time and resources, but in order to release good tools that would benefit the community and really bring out the amazing talent you guys have, an enormous amount of work would be needed to get everything set up properly to enable you guys to really shine (and this isn't counting the legal and licensing barriers either). Work would also have to be done in order to not release the game source with it, while still making the build process ensure that the maps load as quickly as the game base assets, which is no small feat, and ensuring the servers are stable and everyone is able to enjoy them fully.

tl;dr: It's a tremendous undertaking
LinkZeppeloyd
US Enlisted: 2011-10-24
2013-03-18 18:34 , edited 2013-03-18 18:35 by LinkZeppeloyd
DarkLord7854 said:
McTash said:
Thnks for response. Given the outcry for mod tools since BFBC2 and the incoming next gen consoles (which are basically multicore pc's for all intents and purposes) can you see a future where mod support is provided again? Surely the advent of multicore processing in both the pc and console sphere will allow for a simpler build process as the true benefits of parallel processing are realized. Or is the current version of Frostbite to far gone and would require a ground up rewrite?
Nobody has ever said, nor can I imagine anyone saying, that they flat out don't want mod tools (quite the opposite in fact, it's a regular topic of discussion). It's not even a matter of processing power, even though the rigs we use are constantly upgraded, and the Frostbite devs burn out graphics card on a weekly basis.

The issue is pretty straight forward, though complicated and difficult to address. Frostbite is extremely complicated and relies on a lot of licensed technologies that are not easily (even by throwing lots of money at them) re-licensed for public consumption. This is further compounded by the fact that it's not a single editor, and thus can't be released as an easy-install do-everything package.

Can it be made into such a package? Of course, anything is possible, but the time frame and resources required for it is pretty tremendous. The package would then also have to be maintained, documented, have very thorough testing, and some level of support provided. The game would also have to have mod endpoints to support custom packages being added to it, as well as ways to ensure anti-cheat and such are handled properly. We'd probably also want to make sure there's an easy and convenient way to distribute and maintain these mods, similar to Steam Workshop, where authors can upload their creations, receive comments, ratings, etc. The server software would also have to be upgraded to support these mods, followed by updating the backend to allow searching and finding of these servers, plus provide a way for server owners to actually load the content into their server as currently our ToS does not allow any viewing/editing/modifying of the server files.

It's not a simple thing as just dumping all our internal tools and letting people figure things out. I don't think anybody thinks that our tools are beyond the comprehension of everyone, because we obviously use it, and we are all human (last I checked anyways..). But there is a massively steep learning curve because they are just that, dev tools.

I'll give you an example. I wanted to play around a bit with making a map and poke around Frostbite's internals and see what kind of cool map I could make. I used to do maps for older games (AvP2, Starcraft, Bf1942), so I figured "can't be that hard". I never even got to the point of creating a basic empty map before being completely overwhelmed with the amount of options, programs, and data required to begin work before I had to give up and go bother some of the senior mappers and get a crash course on everything I needed to know to set things up. I'm sure I could have figured it out eventually, but the steep entry bar could easily turn away some otherwise fantastic community mappers just because they didn't have the time available to learn things.

So to summarize, yes, anything is possible given enough time and resources, but in order to release good tools that would benefit the community and really bring out the amazing talent you guys have, an enormous amount of work would be needed to get everything set up properly to enable you guys to really shine (and this isn't counting the legal and licensing barriers either). Work would also have to be done in order to not release the game source with it, while still making the build process ensure that the maps load as quickly as the game base assets, which is no small feat, and ensuring the servers are stable and everyone is able to enjoy them fully.

tl;dr: It's a tremendous undertaking


The Realmware Colour Tweaker allowed us to disable the color correction. Just that one little mod was a huge improvement for eye strain and aesthetics. I don't know anything about modding or how it's done, but I have seen the end result, and it doesn't seem impossible.

EDIT: also, thanks for the info. Responses from DICE give the community something to work with and helps keep the ranting/conspiracy theories to a minimum.
MrFluffyKins06
US Enlisted: 2012-08-17
2013-03-18 18:41
Yeah but what about the tweakers?
Like bluetint removal?
Go ahead..... Make a thread in the English forums using another language I DARE YOU
DarkLord7854
SE Enlisted: 2011-10-24
2013-03-18 18:42
LinkZeppeloyd said:
The Realmware Colour Tweaker allowed us to disable the color correction. Just that one little mod was a huge improvement for eye strain and aesthetics. I don't know anything about modding or how it's done, but I have seen the end result, and it doesn't seem impossible.

EDIT: also, thanks for the info. Responses from DICE give the community something to work with and helps keep the ranting/conspiracy theories to a minimum.


Unfortunately, editing the game's running memory and/or injecting pieces of code into it is nowhere near the same as building it into the game properly. I also never said it's impossible, just that doing it properly requires a tremendous amount of time and planning.
R0gueWarrior
CA Enlisted: 2011-10-24
2013-03-18 18:42
thepw1 said:
@ R0gueWarrior,
by chance did you mod for bf2?
POE2 to be more specific? If you did we might just know each other . ;)

I know what Demize99's been up to, Wonder If Lex is still working for EA, I know senior is working on phone app games these days.

Yourself? if you are who i think you are.


Not a member of PoE2 or PoE, I was a member of The Rising Conflicts mod team( DCX members)
Did I mention my BF4 has worked Flawlessly since initial Release!
wvivarcato
US Enlisted: 2012-12-18
2013-03-18 18:44
DarkLord7854 said:
McTash said:
Thnks for response. Given the outcry for mod tools since BFBC2 and the incoming next gen consoles (which are basically multicore pc's for all intents and purposes) can you see a future where mod support is provided again? Surely the advent of multicore processing in both the pc and console sphere will allow for a simpler build process as the true benefits of parallel processing are realized. Or is the current version of Frostbite to far gone and would require a ground up rewrite?
Nobody has ever said, nor can I imagine anyone saying, that they flat out don't want mod tools (quite the opposite in fact, it's a regular topic of discussion). It's not even a matter of processing power, even though the rigs we use are constantly upgraded, and the Frostbite devs burn out graphics card on a weekly basis.

The issue is pretty straight forward, though complicated and difficult to address. Frostbite is extremely complicated and relies on a lot of licensed technologies that are not easily (even by throwing lots of money at them) re-licensed for public consumption. This is further compounded by the fact that it's not a single editor, and thus can't be released as an easy-install do-everything package.

Can it be made into such a package? Of course, anything is possible, but the time frame and resources required for it is pretty tremendous. The package would then also have to be maintained, documented, have very thorough testing, and some level of support provided. The game would also have to have mod endpoints to support custom packages being added to it, as well as ways to ensure anti-cheat and such are handled properly. We'd probably also want to make sure there's an easy and convenient way to distribute and maintain these mods, similar to Steam Workshop, where authors can upload their creations, receive comments, ratings, etc. The server software would also have to be upgraded to support these mods, followed by updating the backend to allow searching and finding of these servers, plus provide a way for server owners to actually load the content into their server as currently our ToS does not allow any viewing/editing/modifying of the server files.

It's not a simple thing as just dumping all our internal tools and letting people figure things out. I don't think anybody thinks that our tools are beyond the comprehension of everyone, because we obviously use it, and we are all human (last I checked anyways..). But there is a massively steep learning curve because they are just that, dev tools.

I'll give you an example. I wanted to play around a bit with making a map and poke around Frostbite's internals and see what kind of cool map I could make. I used to do maps for older games (AvP2, Starcraft, Bf1942), so I figured "can't be that hard". I never even got to the point of creating a basic empty map before being completely overwhelmed with the amount of options, programs, and data required to begin work before I had to give up and go bother some of the senior mappers and get a crash course on everything I needed to know to set things up. I'm sure I could have figured it out eventually, but the steep entry bar could easily turn away some otherwise fantastic community mappers just because they didn't have the time available to learn things.

So to summarize, yes, anything is possible given enough time and resources, but in order to release good tools that would benefit the community and really bring out the amazing talent you guys have, an enormous amount of work would be needed to get everything set up properly to enable you guys to really shine (and this isn't counting the legal and licensing barriers either). Work would also have to be done in order to not release the game source with it, while still making the build process ensure that the maps load as quickly as the game base assets, which is no small feat, and ensuring the servers are stable and everyone is able to enjoy them fully.

tl;dr: It's a tremendous undertaking


Please Add a eSports scene some of us wanna compete and not just pub.
Intel i7 920 | EVGA X58 Classfield | 3 WAY SLI 260 | G.SKILL Ripjaws X 16 Gigs | Samsung SSD 120 Gigs 840 Pro x2 | Razer Deathadder | Logitech G105 |
thepw1
Enlisted: 2012-03-10
2013-03-18 18:48 , edited 2013-03-18 18:49 by thepw1
We used to have a roquewarrior on our team as well, is why i asked.
Been touching base with the old teamates as i find them.
As it took me over a yr to buy this debacle!
Seems most have been picked up by Gameing Industry.
Demize made the move prior & I was actually with Lex @ EA when he took the job.
I passed! Glad i did!
McTash
Enlisted: 2011-10-29
2013-03-18 18:50
DarkLord7854 said:
McTash said:
Thnks for response. Given the outcry for mod tools since BFBC2 and the incoming next gen consoles (which are basically multicore pc's for all intents and purposes) can you see a future where mod support is provided again? Surely the advent of multicore processing in both the pc and console sphere will allow for a simpler build process as the true benefits of parallel processing are realized. Or is the current version of Frostbite to far gone and would require a ground up rewrite?
Nobody has ever said, nor can I imagine anyone saying, that they flat out don't want mod tools (quite the opposite in fact, it's a regular topic of discussion). It's not even a matter of processing power, even though the rigs we use are constantly upgraded, and the Frostbite devs burn out graphics card on a weekly basis.

snip....

tl;dr: It's a tremendous undertaking



Again, thanks for the detailed response. This is why I asked about the ground up rewrite, from the Scaling the Pipeline presentation and your response it seems to me that somewhere down the frostbite development line certain architectural and distribution advantages were afforded at the expense of easy to provide/use mod tools (the non deterministic build output for example, smaller file sizes overall but no ability to diff patch). It's not for me to judge if that was the right decision but it seems like the current architecture/build process is a whacking great barrier in actually realizing easy to provide mod tools. I guess what I'm trying to say is it seems too late now to feasibly do anything about it as the engine is in use in other games and by other studios.
olenkarhu
EE Enlisted: 2012-07-04
2013-03-18 18:51 , edited 2013-03-18 18:54 by olenkarhu
DarkLord7854 said:
LinkZeppeloyd said:
The Realmware Colour Tweaker allowed us to disable the color correction. Just that one little mod was a huge improvement for eye strain and aesthetics. I don't know anything about modding or how it's done, but I have seen the end result, and it doesn't seem impossible.

EDIT: also, thanks for the info. Responses from DICE give the community something to work with and helps keep the ranting/conspiracy theories to a minimum.
Unfortunately, editing the game's running memory and/or injecting pieces of code into it is nowhere near the same as building it into the game properly. I also never said it's impossible, just that doing it properly requires a tremendous amount of time and planning.

But could it (the colour tweaker) then be allowed, at least as a temporary/permanent workaround. Also, I'm happy you guys actually answered to this topic. I can go die in peace now.
EDIT: While I'm here, can I please know what made the game run worse with each patch? Or how/why maps load very fast in AK compared to vanilla? (which is a good thing)
Now that dice finally got bf4 out, perhaps they could do us a favor and add a patch with the option to remove the shitty blue filter from bf3?
DarkLord7854
SE Enlisted: 2011-10-24
2013-03-18 18:58
olenkarhu said:
But could it (the colour tweaker) then be allowed, at least as a temporary/permanent workaround. Also, I'm happy you guys actually answered to this topic. I can go die in peace now.


Unfortunately no, because it opens up the possibility for ways that players can gain an unfair advantage over others (such as being able to increase bullet damage, etc).

McTash said:
Again, thanks for the detailed response. This is why I asked about the ground up rewrite, from the Scaling the Pipeline presentation and your response it seems to me that somewhere down the frostbite development line certain architectural and distribution advantages were afforded at the expense of easy to provide/use mod tools (the non deterministic build output for example, smaller file sizes overall but no ability to diff patch). It's not for me to judge if that was the right decision but it seems like the current architecture/build process is a whacking great barrier in actually realizing easy to provide mod tools. I guess what I'm trying to say is it seems too late now to feasibly do anything about it as the engine is in use in other games and by other studios.


Yes, that is correct, it's also why the patches are so big, because it patches the game packages as a whole since they're large self contained chunks.

The performance benefits are enormous though, especially in terms of dealing with limited system memory, as well as making for ridiculously fast load times, and yet still managing to deliver impressive graphics, lighting, and sound while supporting in-depth physics and a high player count with vehicles.
olenkarhu
EE Enlisted: 2012-07-04
2013-03-18 19:07 , edited 2013-03-18 19:11 by olenkarhu
Oh :(
However, is it true that removing colour grading may give a fps boost? And thanks for the explanation about patches, but how about performance? By that I mean, game used to run better back then in the days of release. A lot of players are experiencing the issue, what might be the cause (if it's not hardware-related, which it can't be(framerates don't magically drop, and a HD7970 doesen't magically turn into an 5670))?
Now that dice finally got bf4 out, perhaps they could do us a favor and add a patch with the option to remove the shitty blue filter from bf3?
McTash
Enlisted: 2011-10-29
2013-03-18 19:13
DarkLord7854 said:
olenkarhu said:
But could it (the colour tweaker) then be allowed, at least as a temporary/permanent workaround. Also, I'm happy you guys actually answered to this topic. I can go die in peace now.
Unfortunately no, because it opens up the possibility for ways that players can gain an unfair advantage over others (such as being able to increase bullet damage, etc).

McTash said:
Again, thanks for the detailed response. This is why I asked about the ground up rewrite, from the Scaling the Pipeline presentation and your response it seems to me that somewhere down the frostbite development line certain architectural and distribution advantages were afforded at the expense of easy to provide/use mod tools (the non deterministic build output for example, smaller file sizes overall but no ability to diff patch). It's not for me to judge if that was the right decision but it seems like the current architecture/build process is a whacking great barrier in actually realizing easy to provide mod tools. I guess what I'm trying to say is it seems too late now to feasibly do anything about it as the engine is in use in other games and by other studios.


Yes, that is correct, it's also why the patches are so big, because it patches the game packages as a whole since they're large self contained chunks.

The performance benefits are enormous though, especially in terms of dealing with limited system memory, as well as making for ridiculously fast load times, and yet still managing to deliver impressive graphics, lighting, and sound while supporting in-depth physics and a high player count with vehicles.


Given the architecture of next gen consoles do you think we are approaching a stage where the high levels of optimization required by the current gen can be relaxed and therefore build environment complexity reduced? I would assume that any engine wishing to exploit the new archs is going to have to be re written to fully take advantage of the high core counts that will be enjoyed by these consoles. In this instance I would like to register my vote for mod tools to be a first class citizen now before the design phase starts :) Again thx for responding.
Cinc_Bruce_Lee
Enlisted: 2013-01-14
2013-03-18 19:17
This is one of the better threads I have read in a long time, really answers alot of questions for alot of people.
If you are gonna run your mouth at least run your brain also
ElBurroDeMuerte
Enlisted: 2011-10-26
2013-03-18 19:25
So the main thing I've read here is that FB is comprised of many technologies you (EA/DICE) license out/don't own which is why we can't have mod tools. Why not just say "we didn't make it, can't give it to you" instead of what feels like a guise of owning the technology? Appreciate the response here, just wondering why it takes 1.5 years for answers.
qxGHOSTxp
US Enlisted: 2011-10-26
2013-03-18 19:25
Gunshowdown said:
This is one of the better threads I have read in a long time, really answers alot of questions for alot of people.

+1

:) Just Better Playing™
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