Doubts about MANTLE? Pros vs. cons here!

MagmaDawg
SE Enlisted: 2011-11-14
2013-10-22 11:17 , edited 2013-10-23 17:41 by MagmaDawg
I am posting this because I think MANTLE sounds brilliant. But... I still have doubts.

1. MANTLE will initially only be for BF 4, but perhaps for other games in the future?
2. Thus far, there are no MANTLE-benchmarks, examples available.
3. With MANTLE running on BF 4, will it mean that ULTRA settings in BF 4 in MANTLE, will look the same as ULTRA settings in BF 4 with DirectX?
4. Lag, stuttering, tearing? Artifacts, glitches, issues?
5. In a MANTLE environment, will you still be able to tweak, change settings and optimize your MANTLE graphics settings?
6. Drivers and updates will be handled how?


BF 4 concerns:

I am worried that DICE will not support MANTLE thoroughly after its release. DICE/EA are not known/repected for their game-support. Just look at the lack of patches, fixes, tweaks for BF 3. They could've done a lot more, but never did.

AMD MANTLE-users, in December, will be guinea-pigs for an unproven technology. Remember, the MANTLE update will be free, but how will support for it look like? We will see after its release.



Long-term concerns:

The rest of the gaming industry will watch closely, but developers are more cost-concerned when developing a game, so MANTLE might just be something developers will skip because it means extra costs/development.

Perhaps it's more cost effective to create a better looking MEDIUM-setting for your games' video options than programming the entire game in a new API...?

DICE is the only one to adopt MANTLE. I would not be surprised if AMD stood for the cost of MANTLE development at DICE/EA... I'm not sure if DICE would accept AMD as an "exclusive" hardware sponsor if DICE had to fork up the cost for an unproven API in MANTLE. Makes no sense...

I really want MANTLE to be a great success, but I have my doubts, and it is not something that will sway me in AMD's direction just yet. There are plenty of other reasons to go AMD than MANTLE (if you want), at this point.


MANTLE INFO:

http://news.softpedia.com/news/The-Four-Core-Principles-of-AMD-Mantle-392575.shtml [news.softpedia.com]
NBAasDOGG
NL Enlisted: 2011-10-27
2013-10-22 11:32
MANTLE is not only for BF4 it's an API for future games on AMD GPU's. The first game that supports MANTLE is BF4.

MANTLE isn't not made for Xbox One and PS4, only for PC
no3y3h4nd
GB Enlisted: 2011-10-28
2013-10-22 11:41
as with any vendor specific API the general take up will be very poor (just look at physx.) DICE are only using it as they got somewhere between $5-7million from AMD to add optimisations for their cards (this also included running well on 8 core cpus).

there's a HAL (hardware abstraction layer) in DX for a very good reason - it simplifies the use of multiple hardware technologies from multiple vendors.

mantle is not the API for either of the next gen console. xbone is using DX 11.2 (tiled resources etc.) I presume ps4 is using open gl (or derivative).

i would doubt it will allow new proprietary effects - what it does purportedly do is dramatically lower the CPU overhead in draw calls as it's not going the extra software layer required by DX.
RobertDownieJr
Enlisted: 2011-10-25
2013-10-22 11:43
http://youtu.be/Jh2Nu2aTPP0 [youtu.be]
ZephyrusSpring
AU Enlisted: 2011-11-28
2013-10-22 11:46
The ball is in DICE's park now, they really need to take mantle to its limits if other developers are going to support it.
I believe in panties.
no3y3h4nd
GB Enlisted: 2011-10-28
2013-10-22 11:56
mattrimkevx said:
The ball is in DICE's park now, they really need to take mantle to its limits if other developers are going to support it.




why would they pay any attention to what DICE do with it? if it was added as rendering pathway to the biggest 3rd party engines then THAT would make a difference as they'd get it for free.
ZephyrusSpring
AU Enlisted: 2011-11-28
2013-10-22 12:07
no3y3h4nd said:
mattrimkevx said:
The ball is in DICE's park now, they really need to take mantle to its limits if other developers are going to support it.
why would they pay any attention to what DICE do with it? if it was added as rendering pathway to the biggest 3rd party engines then THAT would make a difference as they'd get it for free.

DICE have to prove that it's better than directx, if developers on the forefront of high quality graphics can't get it to work better than directx, how can other developers possible get it going?
I believe in panties.
MagmaDawg
SE Enlisted: 2011-11-14
2013-10-22 12:49
mattrimkevx said:
no3y3h4nd said:
mattrimkevx said:
The ball is in DICE's park now, they really need to take mantle to its limits if other developers are going to support it.
why would they pay any attention to what DICE do with it? if it was added as rendering pathway to the biggest 3rd party engines then THAT would make a difference as they'd get it for free.
DICE have to prove that it's better than directx, if developers on the forefront of high quality graphics can't get it to work better than directx, how can other developers possible get it going?

---

This. ^^

Another issue might be that for each developer there will now be extra development costs that will have to come from their own pockets. The truth is that AMD runs pretty damn well as it is; without MANTLE. So, even if MANTLE improves FPS performance @ ULTRA settings + 1080p + 120 Hz by 15%, it doesn't mean that it is worth it for the developer in the end, to create that environment.

Imagine having two developer teams DX and MANTLE or one developing team with two APIs...

I think it will turn developers off.

TIM SWEENEY and JOHN CARMACK had little interest in it seemingly...
TheWewooo
US Enlisted: 2012-09-05
2013-10-22 12:58
Mantle seems like a marketing scheme just like Nvidia physx.
DrOneOneOne
GB Enlisted: 2011-10-28
2013-10-22 13:30
MagmaDawg said:
Another issue might be that for each developer there will now be extra development costs that will have to come from their own pockets. The truth is that AMD runs pretty damn well as it is; without MANTLE. So, even if MANTLE improves FPS performance @ ULTRA settings + 1080p + 120 Hz by 15%, it doesn't mean that it is worth it for the developer in the end, to create that environment.


Pretty much this. Mantle needs to provide dramatic benefits before it's worth a developer spending time writing large chunks of new code for it; otherwise they're just alienating 50% of their potential customers with nVidia cards to no real gain.
Psycho29388
US Enlisted: 2011-12-25
2013-10-22 13:34 , edited 2013-10-22 13:35 by Psycho29388
TheWewooo said:
Mantle seems like a marketing scheme just like Nvidia physx.

except that games supporting the AMD Mantle wont run like shit on Nvidia cards.
SirMecky
GB Enlisted: 2013-09-07
2013-10-22 14:30 , edited 2013-10-22 14:31 by SirMecky
OP about supporting the MANTLE should read here http://www.slideshare.net/DICEStudio/battlefield-4-frostbite-3-mantle [slideshare.net] especially the 15 slide where it says "been talking to the graphics vendors to solve this..." Actually DICE was searching who can create this thing and as far i understand AMD and DICE took a shot collaborating on MANTLE : ) In november all game creators list and technology will be revealed ; ]
labtud
GB Enlisted: 2011-10-31
2013-10-22 14:33
mantle is open tech so if nvidia want to use it they can.
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HVA_HEADBUSTA
US Enlisted: 2011-10-25
2013-10-22 14:42
labtud said:
mantle is open tech so if nvidia want to use it they can.

No. It's open source, which means you can freely look at the source code. Open source does not mean free to use.

It's still licensed software from AMD (hence AMD Mantle), and will require licensing fees to use / alter (probably costing in the 6-digit range).
MagmaDawg
SE Enlisted: 2011-11-14
2013-10-22 14:43 , edited 2013-10-22 14:45 by MagmaDawg
labtud said:
mantle is open tech so if nvidia want to use it they can.

---

Only if a game developer will choose to use it... and only if DICE would change their mind and allow it for both NVIDIA and AMD cards (doubtful).

To be honest, Nvidia is doing the right thing and adapting to the issues with DirectX as it stands today. G-SYNC would improve the way DirectX affects hardware and indirectly affect FPS.

MANTLE looks to ignore DirectX completely. That is a massive step. If AMD + DICE/EA cannot make MANTLE work in BF 4, then MANTLE might just die off...

NVIDIA and developers at large have stayed away from it thus far. We will see what happens with BF 4.
antiHUMANDesigns
SE Enlisted: 2011-10-24
2013-10-22 14:43
AFAIK, mantle comes from a DX11.2 feature. So, if DX11.2 will have the equivalent of Mantle, then developers will use DX11.2. Of course, mantle isn't tied to an operating system, like microsoft does.

In any case, Mantle is definitely a PR trick.

And the R9 290X only runs as fast as it does because it runs at 94 degrees C, and at about 30% more power consumption than a GTX780 (yes, that's insane). I don't see how you can even expect a card to last very long at that temperature. They've simply gone desperate and made a card that is running hotter and harder than a card should.
And yes, it's a fast card, but if you'd increase the voltage that high on a GTX780, and allow it to run at 94 degrees, it would kick the 290X's ass many times over.

So, it's not technology, it's brute force. I think they're simply trying to establish a decent image again, and try to seem like they're catching up.
I think, therefore I am, I think.
MagmaDawg
SE Enlisted: 2011-11-14
2013-10-22 14:50 , edited 2013-10-23 17:42 by MagmaDawg
antiHUMANDesigns said:
AFAIK, mantle comes from a DX11.2 feature. So, if DX11.2 will have the equivalent of Mantle, then developers will use DX11.2. Of course, mantle isn't tied to an operating system, like microsoft does.

In any case, Mantle is definitely a PR trick.

And the R9 290X only runs as fast as it does because it runs at 94 degrees C, and at about 30% more power consumption than a GTX780 (yes, that's insane). I don't see how you can even expect a card to last very long at that temperature. They've simply gone desperate and made a card that is running hotter and harder than a card should.
And yes, it's a fast card, but if you'd increase the voltage that high on a GTX780, and allow it to run at 94 degrees, it would kick the 290X's ass many times over.

So, it's not technology, it's brute force. I think they're simply trying to establish a decent image again, and try to seem like they're catching up.

---

The 290X will probably benchmark very well, but I agree... I mean, did someone use the GPU in Furmark at 1% fan speed? lol

Seriously, the 290X will be a better card with third-party coolers and factory overclocks. Don't forget about more mature drivers as well.

GTX 780 Ti will probably meet the 290X price-point, and is rumored to be neck-to-neck with the TITAN.
SirMecky
GB Enlisted: 2013-09-07
2013-10-22 14:50
If you read the whole slide thing you will understand why we had CPU problems in beta, why windows 8 was running better and lastly how DICE with MANTLE is aiming to improve the performance for us gamers : ) In my opinion its completely not a GIMMICK ; )
FishSnail
GB Enlisted: 2012-09-13
2013-10-22 14:51
MagmaDawg said:
labtud said:
mantle is open tech so if nvidia want to use it they can.
---

Only if a game developer will choose to use it... and only if DICE would change their mind and allow it for both NVIDIA and AMD cards (doubtful).

To be honest, Nvidia is doing the right thing and adapting to the issues with DirectX as it stands today. G-SYNC would improve the way DirectX affects hardware and indirectly affect FPS.

MANTLE looks to ignore DirectX completely. That is a massive step. If AMD + DICE/EA cannot make MANTLE work in BF 4, then MANTLE might just die off...

NVIDIA and developers at large have stayed away from it thus far. We will see what happens with BF 4.


The thing with g-sync is you need a g-sync monitor^^
Pro4TLZZ
GB Enlisted: 2012-12-22
2013-10-22 14:52
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