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Visceral... wtf?

Ellenhey
Enlisted: 2012-11-10
2015-06-26 08:41
Zachulon said:
VG_Domination said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgS4dU8szrY [youtube.com]
I watched your video. You make a lot of incorrect assumptions about the way the guns are tuned and work. You also made some interesting points we'll consider. Thanks for the feedback.

OP didn't make the video, also the only thing you should consider from this guy his 'feedback' is fixing the L85. marbleduck doesn't really understand that hardline isn't the same as battlefield 4. The range of contact is a lot more close quarters in hardline so a lot of your changes are on point.
Zachulon
US Enlisted: 2012-11-03
2015-06-26 14:29
Zuulbe said:
Zachulon said:
VG_Domination said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgS4dU8szrY [youtube.com]
I watched your video. You make a lot of incorrect assumptions about the way the guns are tuned and work. You also made some interesting points we'll consider. Thanks for the feedback.
OP didn't make the video, also the only thing you should consider from this guy his 'feedback' is fixing the L85. marbleduck doesn't really understand that hardline isn't the same as battlefield 4. The range of contact is a lot more close quarters in hardline so a lot of your changes are on point.

I was trying to be nice by saying we'd consider the feedback, it's actually awfully misinformed. Whoever made the video has no understanding of how our weapons work. That random BF4 footage is great though, way to have video supporting and illustrating your points, lol.
Ellenhey
Enlisted: 2012-11-10
2015-06-27 07:38
Zachulon said:
Zuulbe said:
Zachulon said:
VG_Domination said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgS4dU8szrY [youtube.com]
I watched your video. You make a lot of incorrect assumptions about the way the guns are tuned and work. You also made some interesting points we'll consider. Thanks for the feedback.
OP didn't make the video, also the only thing you should consider from this guy his 'feedback' is fixing the L85. marbleduck doesn't really understand that hardline isn't the same as battlefield 4. The range of contact is a lot more close quarters in hardline so a lot of your changes are on point.
I was trying to be nice by saying we'd consider the feedback, it's actually awfully misinformed. Whoever made the video has no understanding of how our weapons work. That random BF4 footage is great though, way to have video supporting and illustrating your points, lol.

exactly, good to finally hear it from a devs standpoint
VG_Domination
Enlisted: 2012-04-15
2015-06-28 22:49 , edited 2015-06-28 23:04 by VG_Domination
Zachulon said:
VG_Domination said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgS4dU8szrY [youtube.com]
I watched your video. You make a lot of incorrect assumptions about the way the guns are tuned and work. You also made some interesting points we'll consider. Thanks for the feedback.

Its not my video... Just reposting. Thank you for the reply. It just seemed obvious to me that some things were blatantly overlooked before releasing the patch. I love the game and play it everyday. Its fun and I like the direction you guys are trying to take it. I really dont have any complaints aside from Armored Inserts, but marble did make a few good points. Sorry he did it over a BF4 video but hes also on PC and its still a battlefield game right? I understand the change to the RO933. Makes perfect sense. Im sure you guys thought well if we buff the minimum were going to have to take the DO range down. So its still a buff unlike what marble was saying about it. Sorry if I offended anyone, but that also tells me you guys care about the game a lot and thats nice to see. The passion is there. Not bashing you guys in anyway, I think you guys are doing way better than many will give you credit for. I wasnt posting this for the masses, I just wanted to make devs aware of some things they may have overlooked. Thats why I didnt leave a desription and just a link to the video. I know a dev with passion will take the time out to watch it. And just so were clear ive never told anyone not to buy this game, I tell everyone to get it because it is so much fun. But its kinda like being stuck in the same room with someone for a week, eventually your frustrations are obvious.
Xuvial
NZ Enlisted: 2011-10-28
2015-06-29 10:28 , edited 2015-06-29 10:48 by Xuvial
Zachulon said:
I was trying to be nice by saying we'd consider the feedback, it's actually awfully misinformed. Whoever made the video has no understanding of how our weapons work.

Of course he has no understanding of how your weapons work. Nobody does. It'd be lovely if you actually EXPLAINED the strange (almost random) numbers used for weapon stats instead of just claiming that people don't "understand" your weapons.

But more on topic, please explain what is there to understand? Look at this:
http://symthic.com/bf-hardline-weapon-charts [symthic.com]

Hardline is doing absolutely nothing new compared to BF3 and BF4 in terms of weapon stat parameters. Vertical recoil, horizontal recoil, FSM, min spread, max spread, spread decrease, recoil decrease, muzzle velocity, reload times, damage models, stances....it's all there! All those things have been around since 2011 (BF3) and Hardline uses them no differently. You are using DICE's exact same weapon balance parameters, things that have already been heavily used and tweaked over several years.

So the only thing not making sense here are the values/numbers being used for those parameters...they don't make any sense logically nor mathematically. Random is truly the only word that describes Hardline's weapon balance right now.

Of course the end result is that every weapon category has 1-2 guns that make every other gun redundant. Or was that Visceral's goal?
Zachulon
US Enlisted: 2012-11-03
2015-06-29 19:56
Xuvial said:
Zachulon said:
I was trying to be nice by saying we'd consider the feedback, it's actually awfully misinformed. Whoever made the video has no understanding of how our weapons work.
Of course he has no understanding of how your weapons work. Nobody does. It'd be lovely if you actually EXPLAINED the strange (almost random) numbers used for weapon stats instead of just claiming that people don't "understand" your weapons.

But more on topic, please explain what is there to understand? Look at this:
http://symthic.com/bf-hardline-weapon-charts [symthic.com]

Hardline is doing absolutely nothing new compared to BF3 and BF4 in terms of weapon stat parameters. Vertical recoil, horizontal recoil, FSM, min spread, max spread, spread decrease, recoil decrease, muzzle velocity, reload times, damage models, stances....it's all there! All those things have been around since 2011 (BF3) and Hardline uses them no differently. You are using DICE's exact same weapon balance parameters, things that have already been heavily used and tweaked over several years.

So the only thing not making sense here are the values/numbers being used for those parameters...they don't make any sense logically nor mathematically. Random is truly the only word that describes Hardline's weapon balance right now.

Of course the end result is that every weapon category has 1-2 guns that make every other gun redundant. Or was that Visceral's goal?


I think you're way too focused on a bunch of numbers instead of how the guns actually feel in the game. Symthic is a nice website but all they're doing is pulling incomplete data from the game. They have no context or understanding of how that data is interpreted by the code. So when you say we're doing the exact same thing and using them no differently, you are speaking without the proper information.

Just because our data is organized the same way does not mean our code uses those values the same way. I disagree with your conclusion that our weapon balance is random. How would you know when you haven't played Hardline? You're just looking at some third party website with incomplete data and some random dude who makes a YouTube video with footage from another game? Come on now, lol. If you would like to talk about specific weapons and how they are balanced I would love to. You're going to have to actually play the game though.
supernarfa
Enlisted: 2013-05-13
2015-06-29 21:44 , edited 2015-06-29 22:16 by supernarfa
Having put a number of hours into this game file me under someone who doesn't understand the balance at all in this.
-I don't get the SMG damage model having weapons that have a high damage model and a high ROF but drop off to nothing within 20 feet, making them impossible to use. Outside of touching distance. The high damage and the high ROF are redundant, to me. Trying to compensate with lag, armored insert, and random bullet spread, asking for a 10 hit kill at 30 feet is just ridiculous.
-I still don't understand the use for the carbines, as their damage, damage drop off, and ROF is inferior across the board to the assault rifles.
-None of the side arm balance makes sense, unless the Syndicate weapons are intentionally supposed to be superior to the regular sidearms in every possible way.
-The shotguns are useless besides spitting distance, out side of the double barrel, because if you don't get a one shot kill you're dead and they're too inconsistent to rely on that. The TTK in this is so low that there is no time to get off a second shot since they're all pump actions.
-I don't understand the battle rifle balance, or why one faction gets easily the two best battle rifles (the FAL and the SA-58). When every gun has the exact same damage model, the only thing after that is RPM.
-The sniper balance still does make sense, unless you think that the 308 magnum rounds for the two "heavy" bolt actions make up for a slower RPM, slower bullet speed, and lower mag size.


True balance, to me, would be looking at any gun and finding a use for it. And there are so many guns in this that I would never, ever pick up again because they have no niche, there is a gun that does something better in every possible way.

*quick edit* The low TTK in this entire game is, to me, just incredibly poorly thought out and I doubt you'll ever be able to justify that to my liking. Some of the weapons are so low as to be impossible for client and the server being able to communicate what is going on, leading to tons of one frame, instant (seeming) kills. Google tells me it takes 300-400ms to blink an eye, which is about double what it takes the majority of the weapons to kill you In this game up until 30-40m. I wonder if you play your own game sometimes.
Zachulon
US Enlisted: 2012-11-03
2015-06-29 22:51
Alright, props for at least being somewhat specific and not just saying "gun balance is broken." I am going to reply to each of these with my thoughts/opinion, I am not trying to argue but I think people want this back and forth right? Let's address your points one at a time:

supernarfa said:
Having put a number of hours into this game file me under someone who doesn't understand the balance at all in this.
-I don't get the SMG damage model having weapons that have a high damage model and a high ROF but drop off to nothing within 20 feet, making them impossible to use. Outside of touching distance. The high damage and the high ROF are redundant, to me. Trying to compensate with lag, armored insert, and random bullet spread, asking for a 10 hit kill at 30 feet is just ridiculous.


SMGs use a pistol caliber bullet so it's not going to carry as much damage as a rifle bullet. The role of the SMG is close range, it is not a long range gun. SMGs have less recoil and are easier to control because of this. The numbers you are using (20 feet, 30 feet) are exaggerated.

supernarfa said:
-I still don't understand the use for the carbines, as their damage, damage drop off, and ROF is inferior across the board to the assault rifles.


The Carbines are easier to control and have less recoil than Assault rifles. Yes, they do slightly less damage but that’s the trade-off for the controllability. I know, you’re going to mention the M16 and M416 now. The M16 and M416 have more recoil and are harder to control than Carbines.

supernarfa said:
-None of the side arm balance makes sense, unless the Syndicate weapons are intentionally supposed to be superior to the regular sidearms in every possible way.


This is too general, I don’t want to list every sidearm here. I will talk about the Syndicate Sidearm thinking.
Mechanic: 410 Jury is a short range pistol that shoots a 410 shell. This makes it drastically different from the revolvers the Mechanic has but not better, it has an advantage in short range situations but the revolvers are better for long distances.
Operator: G17 has lower damage than most of the other Operator sidearms, the tradeoff is less recoil.
Enforcer: Bald Eagle does tons of damage but it’s got tons of recoil, a low rate of fire and a small magazine.
Professional: Mac10. Tons of recoil and spread compared to the other Professional sidearms. Balancing it out is its High rate of fire… We are also nerfing it a bit in XP2.

supernarfa said:
-The shotguns are useless besides spitting distance, out side of the double barrel, because if you don't get a one shot kill you're dead and they're too inconsistent to rely on that. The TTK in this is so low that there is no time to get off a second shot since they're all pump actions.


Shotgun is the best close range weapon, that’s its role. It’s not supposed to be good at range. Also, I disagree that you can’t get a second shot off. Try the KSG12 or the SPAS and you’ll have no trouble getting multiple shots off.

supernarfa said:
-I don't understand the battle rifle balance, or why one faction gets easily the two best battle rifles (the FAL and the SA-58). When every gun has the exact same damage model, the only thing after that is RPM.


Those two rifles have the most recoil of all Battle Rifles. That, combined with the higher rate of fire, makes them the two most difficult to control Battle Rifles.

supernarfa said:
-The sniper balance still does make sense, unless you think that the 308 magnum rounds for the two "heavy" bolt actions make up for a slower RPM, slower bullet speed, and lower mag size.


You’re saying the Sniper Rifles are good or am I not understanding the statement? Yes, the slower bolt actions are able to one hit kill in a shorter range and carry damage over distance better.

supernarfa said:
True balance, to me, would be looking at any gun and finding a use for it. And there are so many guns in this that I would never, ever pick up again because they have no niche, there is a gun that does something better in every possible way.


I think this point is less about just gun balance and more about how each gun relates to your personal preference and playstyle. One man’s trash is another man’s treasure.

supernarfa said:
*quick edit* The low TTK in this entire game is, to me, just incredibly poorly thought out and I doubt you'll ever be able to justify that to my liking. Some of the weapons are so low as to be impossible for client and the server being able to communicate what is going on, leading to tons of one frame, instant (seeming) kills. Google tells me it takes 300-400ms to blink an eye, which is about double what it takes the majority of the weapons to kill you In this game up until 30-40m. I wonder if you play your own game sometimes.


Our game is not intended to have the same longer TTK that BF4 had. No one is getting killed in 150ms though, that's an exaggerated number for sure :)

I have played this game in development for countless hours. I have played over 110 hours of the retail game at home on my own time, about to hit Level 113 tonight. I really like the game and I play every night.

I do appreciate the feedback and passion for the game. Thanks for playing and actually using the guns rather than basing your feedback on a website with incomplete data or someone else's opinion on a YouTube video.
NiceDrewishFella
US Enlisted: 2011-10-25
2015-06-29 23:26
Zachulon said:
I do appreciate the feedback and passion for the game. Thanks for playing and actually using the guns rather than basing your feedback on a website with incomplete data or someone else's opinion on a YouTube video.


So glad you said that last part.

See so many threads on here in which people cite the Symthic numbers like they are the Gospel. One of my biggest pet peeves is when people complain about a weapon, then you check their stats to see they have barely, or even never, used the very weapon they are complaining about.

The .300 Knockout is an ideal example. They see Symthic has it as 100 damage. And yeah... it is powerful. But when you use it you realize that not every shot is going to be an insta-kill. You find out that unless you are close, you aren't going to get the kill on an enemy. You are going to get hit markers at random times. You can't use it like you would a normal sniper rifle, as it shoots ping pong balls from any kind of range. You really have to play aggressively to have consistent success with it.

Stats are great for comparison, but you really have to play with a weapon to understand its ups and downs.
"Winning is only half of it. Having fun is the other half." Bum Phillips
VG_Domination
Enlisted: 2012-04-15
2015-06-29 23:46
Didnt mean to cause a shit storm. But i guess we all know how battlelog forums go... thanks for the in depth responses though Zachulon. Its nice to see that you play a good amount also. The game is great and weapon balance is great in my opinion... But about those damn armored inserts lol. Any possibility we will see a nerf of some type in the future? Maybe a mobility nerf or even more flinching when being shot? Doesnt necessarily have to be a nerf to the damage it absorbs but something would be nice. I like the idea of it causing less mobility since that would make sense. I only bring this up since tracers have downfalls as well which is understandable because its dlc content but jesus those armored insert engis are tanks.
supernarfa
Enlisted: 2013-05-13
2015-06-30 00:17 , edited 2015-06-30 00:18 by supernarfa
Thanks for the replies, Zach.

I think Symthic is definitely helpful because "feel" doesn't tell the whole story, and the bars in the game don't tell us anything whatsoever, and numbers are numbers.

As for the gun balance, I'll defer to design, if that's how you feel it's balanced then it's whatever.

This though I'm gonna take umbrage with:

No one is getting killed in 150ms though, that's an exaggerated number for sure :)

You can knock Symthic, but the numbers don't lie and there are a ton of weapons that will kill in under 200ms. Hell, simple math tells me that (1200x34)/6 ends up being almost a 1/6th of a second to take someone from 100 to zero.

Take into account that we get shoved into servers with people from all over the world and people with bad internet connections, I don't see how you can say with a straight face that that is an exaggeration. I mean, this is on the level of Call of Duty type twitch shooting TTK and Battlefield will never run as smooth as a 6vs6 game of Call of Duty (not intended as insult, it's just the reality of the different scales of the games).

It leads to a metric ass-ton of one frame deaths that feel cheap as hell.
PrinceDilemma
Enlisted: 2013-10-11
2015-06-30 01:07
theres too much mod censorship on this forum
RewardMissing
Enlisted: 2011-10-26
2015-06-30 01:17 , edited 2015-06-30 02:11 by RewardMissing
Zachulon said:
Xuvial said:
Zachulon said:
I was trying to be nice by saying we'd consider the feedback, it's actually awfully misinformed. Whoever made the video has no understanding of how our weapons work.
Of course he has no understanding of how your weapons work. Nobody does. It'd be lovely if you actually EXPLAINED the strange (almost random) numbers used for weapon stats instead of just claiming that people don't "understand" your weapons.

But more on topic, please explain what is there to understand? Look at this:
http://symthic.com/bf-hardline-weapon-charts [symthic.com]

Hardline is doing absolutely nothing new compared to BF3 and BF4 in terms of weapon stat parameters. Vertical recoil, horizontal recoil, FSM, min spread, max spread, spread decrease, recoil decrease, muzzle velocity, reload times, damage models, stances....it's all there! All those things have been around since 2011 (BF3) and Hardline uses them no differently. You are using DICE's exact same weapon balance parameters, things that have already been heavily used and tweaked over several years.

So the only thing not making sense here are the values/numbers being used for those parameters...they don't make any sense logically nor mathematically. Random is truly the only word that describes Hardline's weapon balance right now.

Of course the end result is that every weapon category has 1-2 guns that make every other gun redundant. Or was that Visceral's goal?
I think you're way too focused on a bunch of numbers instead of how the guns actually feel in the game. Symthic is a nice website but all they're doing is pulling incomplete data from the game. They have no context or understanding of how that data is interpreted by the code. So when you say we're doing the exact same thing and using them no differently, you are speaking without the proper information.

Just because our data is organized the same way does not mean our code uses those values the same way. I disagree with your conclusion that our weapon balance is random. How would you know when you haven't played Hardline? You're just looking at some third party website with incomplete data and some random dude who makes a YouTube video with footage from another game? Come on now, lol. If you would like to talk about specific weapons and how they are balanced I would love to. You're going to have to actually play the game though.


Zachulon, you are absolutely correct about this.

At this point in time, Symthic really only knows how to read the values. But in the case of BF4, DICE and DICE LA have informed us about how the values are used in the code, such as how moving spread is calculated. Or how Hrecoil works. Or how Recoil Decrease is calculated. Or how Spread Decrease Per Second is applied continuously for vehicles while it waits for the weapon to be ready to fire on infantry.

In the absence of similar levels of interaction, Symthic sometimes and tentatively uses the same interactions that BF4 does, however, this obviously causes problems such as moving spread. Some of the values just don't work by using BF4 style which is why we tentatively say that BFH's moving spread is calculated by adding stationary and moving spread in the files. Admittedly, marbleduck should make it more obvious that Symthic has no real idea how the values interact within Hardline.

However, there are some things that should not require that much thinking or digging such as the application of Spread Increase Per Shot upon a weapon's current spread value. Unless there is some other modifier at work, I think it is safe to say that the calculation is to simply add the listed value to the current spread.

The same thing can be said for the Stubby/Potato Grip and Stock. Each of these halves Spread Increase Per Shot and Maximum Spread. Some weapons can equip both of them at once. This has led to analyses that show the maximum spread would sometimes be lower than minimum spread. Of course, this is just a preliminary analysis. For all Symthic knows, there could be additional modifiers at work that mean it is not a 0.25x modifier on Maximum Spread. Or that even if Maximum Spread were lower, Minimum Spread would be used.

If marbleduck is wrong about something, you can tell him why. Just as how DICE and DICE LA have communicated to us about the formulas used, hopefully Visceral can do the same thing so that the raw values are not just raw values. By communicating how the game utilizes the values, Visceral can provide a better insight for players so that they can find out what's right for them.
gitrektkkthnxbai
PT Enlisted: 2011-10-28
2015-06-30 01:24
NoctyrneSAGA said:
You are absolutely correct about this.

At this point in time, Symthic really only knows how to read the values. But in the case of BF4, DICE and DICE LA have informed us about how the values are used in the code, such as how moving spread is calculated. Or how Hrecoil works. Or how Recoil Decrease is calculated. Or how Spread Decrease Per Second is applied continuously for vehicles while it waits for the weapon to be ready to fire on infantry.

In the absence of similar levels of interaction, Symthic sometimes and tentatively uses the same interactions that BF4 does, however, this obviously causes problems such as moving spread. Some of the values just don't work by using BF4 style which is why we tentatively say that BFH's moving spread is calculated by adding stationary and moving spread in the files. Admittedly, marbleduck should make it more obvious that Symthic has no real idea how the values interact within Hardline.

However, there are some things that should not require that much thinking or digging such as the application of Spread Increase Per Shot upon a weapon's current spread value. Unless there is some other modifier at work, I think it is safe to say that the calculation is to simply add the listed value to the current spread.

The same thing can be said for the Stubby/Potato Grip and Stock. Each of these halves Spread Increase Per Shot and Maximum Spread. Some weapons can equip both of them at once. This has led to analyses that show the maximum spread would sometimes be lower than minimum spread. Of course, this is just a preliminary analysis. For all Symthic knows, there could be additional modifiers at work that mean it is not a 0.25x modifier on Maximum Spread. Or that even if Maximum Spread were lower, Minimum Spread would be used.

If marbleduck is wrong about something, you can tell him why. Just as how DICE and DICE LA have communicated to us about the formulas used, hopefully Visceral can do the same thing so that the raw values are not just raw values. By communicating how the game utilizes the values, Visceral can provide a better insight for players so that they can find out what's right for them.


Excellent post.
SYM-Duck
US Enlisted: 2012-06-13
2015-06-30 01:27 , edited 2015-06-30 01:28 by SYM-Duck
Zachulon said:
Zuulbe said:
Zachulon said:
VG_Domination said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgS4dU8szrY [youtube.com]
I watched your video. You make a lot of incorrect assumptions about the way the guns are tuned and work. You also made some interesting points we'll consider. Thanks for the feedback.
OP didn't make the video, also the only thing you should consider from this guy his 'feedback' is fixing the L85. marbleduck doesn't really understand that hardline isn't the same as battlefield 4. The range of contact is a lot more close quarters in hardline so a lot of your changes are on point.
I was trying to be nice by saying we'd consider the feedback, it's actually awfully misinformed. Whoever made the video has no understanding of how our weapons work. That random BF4 footage is great though, way to have video supporting and illustrating your points, lol.



OP of the video here.

First of all, I have a video series featuring exclusively Hardline gameplay, stating in detail how the game can be better balanced, using archetypes established in BF4. So yes, I support the game. In a final attempt to repair it, using ideas borrowed from the guys behind the changes that made BF4 balanced, I presented these three videos, in the hopes that the developers might at least take some of the ideas, and use them to create at least an approximation of balance:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLHDNM9FpcE [youtube.com]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4Q44lmKrkI [youtube.com]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vv8iPUEVcNg [youtube.com]

So, that's the "support of the game" you were looking for. I stopped playing when it became apparent that there was no intention of addressing the issues.

" Thanks for playing and actually using the guns rather than basing your feedback on a website with incomplete data or someone else's opinion on a YouTube video."

I've played 250 hours of Hardline, and have a pretty good impression of the lack of balance from simply playing. However, qualitative evidence is insufficient to make claims about stuff like game balance, so the mathematical approach is the only solution that won't be affected by personal bias.

And no, my claims are not misinformed. Data doesn't lie, and my data comes directly from the game's files.

Final note: I understand this game is not Battlefield 4. However, there are systems that can be taken from that game, and applied to this one, without breaking the intentions of the developers.
RewardMissing
Enlisted: 2011-10-26
2015-06-30 01:33 , edited 2015-06-30 01:33 by RewardMissing
SYM-MarbleDuck said:
And no, my claims are not misinformed. Data doesn't lie, and my data comes directly from the game's files.


If that were true, then can you say right now 100% guaranteed correct how Hrecoil functions in Hardline?

How about SDEC?

Recoil Decrease?

Material Multipliers?



I looked through the Reputation files to look at the 0.5x Armored Insert modifier. Do you know what I still say?

"I cannot 100% sure guarantee this is the actual modifier."



It is as Zachulon said before. Symthic's BFH sections are little more than data dumps. We are no closer to figuring out true values today than we were during BFH's 2nd Beta.
Xuvial
NZ Enlisted: 2011-10-28
2015-06-30 02:44 , edited 2015-06-30 02:47 by Xuvial
Agreeing with Noctyrne here. Better communication from Visceral regarding Hardline's intricacies would definitely be appreciated and help the game hugely in the long run.

That way discussions could actually contain quantifiable factual arguments instead of just boiling down to subjective feelings, opinions, or vague statements like "well this has more recoil". Those never get anywhere. We don't even know if you're factoring attachments into your points.

Zachulon said:
I think this point is less about just gun balance and more about how each gun relates to your personal preference and playstyle. One man’s trash is another man’s treasure.

^ Statements like these are so bullet-proof and generic that they are impossible to discuss any further. Every single criticism anyone (ever) brings up can be easily countered with "personal preference playstyle" etc.
MarxistDictator
Enlisted: 2011-10-25
2015-06-30 03:06
I treasure all the battle rifles, they were the main reason I bought the game at all. I thought I was the only one who knew how to use the G3 in BF3 because I was the only one using it in any lobby I played yet I was dominating with it. And in this game its cool to have so many and they are all very good, except the HK51 and HCAR. They really don't do anything worth using them for.

I've noticed that all battle rifles tap fire the same, and do the same damage (except the FAL having better range for whatever reason) and are generally just as not-exactly pinpoint accurate. They only seem to fire and recoil within 10% of each other. But the HK51 and HCAR lag really far behind and don't feel as accurate when I'm firing rapidly which doesn't make sense either. I can pretty much say the only reason to use them is to challenge yourself, especially with the DLC rifle also having a large magazine but a 600 RPM fire rate that makes it devastating in CQB . And the FAL also having a stubby/stock but more range and better accuracy than the HK51 - not only does it have accuracy and rate of fire, it also has better damage on average through the CQBish engagements and even beyond that.

Will they ever see any improvement to stand out in the class or are they just someone else's treasure? Because I rarely see people using enforcer at all let alone his terrible guns and even when I was getting the occasional lobby topping game with it I would have rather been using anything else. They're not good at anything but providing the illusion of enforcer having a large class of battle rifles to choose from when only two are able to stand up to assault rifles and SMGs without DLC.
Lead Based Toys
bizerker21
US Enlisted: 2011-10-26
2015-06-30 12:18
I think it is hilarious that there are several here trying to talk or bash BFH, when they everyone can clearly see there is no BFH next to their name. Unless you have a dup account, your input is useless and irrelevant. If you do have a dup account, then post with it, if not you just come across as troll.

Maybe it's the nerd in many of us that wants to see the numbers so much, but truth of the matter is you do have to use the weapon to see if it really fits for you and your style of play. Having a supposed "OP" weapon only makes it OP if it fits you. Numbers help give a somewhat basis to how the weapon works, but if it doesn't feel right to the person then it really doesn't matter. Everyone talks about the FAL being so awesome, for me it's not. The SG510 is a far superior weapon for me, WHAT? So when the statement that criminals now have the 2 best battle rifles is made, I beg to differ, even if the math or numbers say different. I understand someone saying that play style and so forth could be the easy excuse that is always given and I agree to a point with that, but truth is that there is not greater factor than that in the equation...just not good to use it as blanket answer.
SYM-Duck
US Enlisted: 2012-06-13
2015-06-30 12:45
Zachulon dijo:
Operator: G17 has lower damage than most of the other Operator sidearms, the tradeoff is less recoil.
Enforcer: Bald Eagle does tons of damage but it’s got tons of recoil, a low rate of fire and a small magazine.


Missed this gem earlier. The G17 does more damage and has a much higher RoF than all other Operator pistols, unless somehow there are different multipliers for different guns, which doesn't make sense.

M9: 34-12, 400RPM
CZ75: 34-25, 360RPM
P226: 34-10, 400RPM
G17: 34-25, 900RPM

Why would I ever want to use anything other than the G17?

And since you seem to be on hand, can you tell me what the deal is with the inconsistent SIPS values across all weapons? Why does the low-DPS CAR-556 have more SIPS than the high-DPS M416, for example?
 
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