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The C4/Breaching Charge Discussion

syf-CryptiK
AU Enlisted: 2011-10-25
2014-12-11 12:37
As we all know C4 will be in Hardline and will at the moment be apart of the Enforcer(Support) kit. I would like to bring forward the discussion of possibly moving it to another kit for balance reasons. As of BFBC2 DICE thought it was a great idea to couple the C4 with an ammo box I and many others disliked this change for a few reasons, this was more apparent in Battlefield 3 and 4 where C4 made a bigger impact to overall game play as a Support class was able to just sit in a corner re-supply himself and spam small corridors and elevator doors, this was a common annoyance among the community and at times made certain areas of smaller maps un-enjoyable, DICE later added a larger re-supply timer for the C4 however the spam is still very apparent. I've seen that Visceral want to reduce the explosions in Hardline to both keep the game somewhat representing a police urban environment and to keep the gameplay fun.

An example of what I mean: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCfSk0QEb3E [youtube.com]

Now onto how to reduce the problem and promote more teamwork at the same time. I have two possible solutions Give the C4 to the Professional(Recon) or the Mechanic(Engineer).

Giving it to the Professional:

Pro's

- Recon/Special Forces kits were the original owners of the C4 in the older titles.
- C4 on the Professional kit will encourage them to get amongst the fight and help dealing with vehicles.
- They will have to seek out a team mate in order to re-supply there stock of C4 this will alleviate the spam and promote team work.
- Gives the Professional another use besides being a camper.

Con's

- Professional will have too many gadgets (Fix: Move some to the Enforcer eg. the Decoy and the Camera).
- Professional will have both Claymores and C4 causing explosive spam (Fix: Only allow one possible explosive gadget eg. if C4 is selected you cannot select Claymores).

Giving it to the Mechanic:

Pro's

- It suits the class
- It can be used as a primary means of destroying vehicles.
- Acts as an alternative way to deal with vehicles besides the M320.
- They will have to seek out a team mate in order to re-supply there stock of C4 this will alleviate the spam and promote team work.

Con's

- Too many gadgets (Fix: Move M320 Smoke and Flash to the Enforcer as it would suit the role the class plays and remove the booby trap from the Mechanic)
- Mechanic will have to many explosives( Fix: Same thing as mentioned with the Professional make the player choose between M320 HE or C4)


These are just some examples and I would love to hear some other ideas. I do hope that Visceral can play test this as it has been an issue since BC2 that was never properly addressed, though I do applaud you guys for limiting it to one class. If you don't agree it would be great if you could give us a reason behind it as well as I believe my idea both encourages tactical thinking and teamwork which also steps the game back from the casual turn the series has taken.
GoGoGadgetLoL
AU Enlisted: 2012-03-11
2014-12-11 14:28
Kinda bored, so I thought I might reply:

On the topic of giving C4 to the professional, it's important to think about how giving him C4 will synergise with the rest of his kit, lets take a look at it:

Main weapons:
Snipers -- Encourage Mid->Long range play (& often static play due to the limited amount of viable sniper locations)

Current gadgets:
Claymore/Tripmine thing -- Encourages static/defensive play (Optimal use is when an enemy learns your position, your best option is to put down a tripmine and stay within that area)

Stealth Training -- This one's a bit strange, I'm not sure if the idea behind it was to give Professionals an option for close-range counterplay (eg. to make up for the fact that Pro's don't have their own CR weapon), unfortunately this gadget doesn't have any way of actively 'rewarding' the player for picking it - the player will never know, for example, that it was their choice of this gadget that caused them to be able to sneak up to an enemy player, or whether that enemy player just normally listens to music and mutes ingame sounds.
So, this gadget gives the best argument for the Pro to have C4, as he'd be able to get close enough to plant it - but this is flaky at best.

Camera -- Kind of like a directional LOS TUGs from what I gather, again, this promotes defensive, static play in most cases.

-------------

Now, let's have a look at C4 and see what role it is designed for
C4/Breaching charge:
-Super close range
-Area of Effect
-Anti vehicle/anti structure/anti infantry in some chokepoint scenarios
-Encourages mobile play in all but the chokepoint scenarios

-------------

All in all, you can see how the Professional is geared towards a certain playstyle, with weapons and gadgets that mainly encourage static, defensive play. Whether it helps the team or not doesn't really come into it - the Professional is currently designed to be a camper in most scenarios, so giving them C4 isn't a clear winner, and may not even help explosive spam - most maps where explosive spam is a problem (eg. Lockers), there is always enough ammo packs etc on the ground that the reliance on personal resupply to continue the spam is minimal.
syf-CryptiK
AU Enlisted: 2011-10-25
2014-12-11 14:59 , edited 2014-12-11 18:10 by syf-CryptiK
GoGoGadgetLoL said:
*snip*

While I do agree that the Professional Class is geared towards a more passive and defensive play style it is clear that each kit has a secondary play style dependent one what gadgets are equipped.

Take the Professional, they have a selection between the DMR and a Bolt Action Sniper. Some would argue that the DMR is designed for long range however it has a much better effect in the mid to close range battles. The current issue with the class is while it does have a weapon that can work mid to close it doesn't really have a gadget(other than stealth training) to compliment it and IMO that's where the C4 would come in and that is where it was until BC2.

Defensive set up
Bolt Action Rifle
Camera
Trip Mine

Agro set up
DMR
C4
Stealth training

The Mechanic again also kind of has a duel play style choice. Its clear that the class has access to both a aggressive play (M320 + Tracking) vs its more passive side (Repair tool and Sabotage/m320 smoke). Replacing Sabotage with C4 will allow for more of a flexible passive play.

The Enforcer appeals to both Close(Shotguns) and Mid to Long Range(ABR's) in a passive style only but in the gadget area hasn't got much to compliment the play style at all. At the moment 3 gadgets (C4, Ammo pack and a Ballistic shield) changing out the C4 for m320/m79 Flash and Smoke will add another dynamic to the class allowing it to be a bit more aggressive or passive in certain situations

The Operator IMO is one of the only classes with a clear all rounder play style. And the class is fine as is.

I do think the C4 does need to be moved from the enforcer but the clear choice isn't there both the Professional and Mechanic as a class would benefit from the addition (Professional More so)

On the point you make about C4 spam on maps like Lockers this may only make a minimal difference however on the larger maps it will be a lot better limiting C4 so players can't camp Elevator doors or small key objective areas (BLOOD MONEY) with unlimited access to c4, would be extremely beneficial and by making the player look for help from another player, re-supplying them is a simple way of rewarding team play.
JoeyEdwardSmith
US Enlisted: 2012-10-19
2014-12-11 15:06
Good discussion guys.Carry on.
dirtydeathdog
US Enlisted: 2014-04-15
2014-12-11 18:02
Awesome discussion guys, makes my designer heart happy.

I'm on my way in to the office, I'll comment later today.
DDD Twitter: @dirtydeathdog
Officer_Sloth
US Enlisted: 2011-10-28
2014-12-11 18:10 , edited 2014-12-11 18:13 by Officer_Sloth
I have also thought about this. As you guys have shown there isn't a clear choice or fix. I like it when people have discussions like this as we can start to see the thought process behind the dev teams and truly dissect the classes roles.

JoeyEdwardSmith said:
Good discussion guys.Carry on.
Make Battlelog great again!
A_Cool_Gorilla
Enlisted: 2011-10-30
2014-12-11 21:20 , edited 2014-12-16 21:06 by A_Cool_Gorilla
-Lg-Cryp said:
While I do agree that the Professional Class is geared towards a more passive and defensive play style it is clear that each kit has a secondary play style dependent one what gadgets are equipped.
...
...
...
On the point you make about C4 spam on maps like Lockers this may only make a minimal difference however on the larger maps it will be a lot better limiting C4 so players can't camp Elevator doors or small key objective areas (BLOOD MONEY) with unlimited access to c4, would be extremely beneficial and by making the player look for help from another player, re-supplying them is a simple way of rewarding team play.


I'd agree with GoGoGadget. The Professional just doesn't make sense to hold the C4. Stealth Training could be used offensively, but it just wouldn't help on vehicle maps. While snipers can be used close range you're putting yourself at a huge disadvantage. You'd be playing against the strengths of the class in order to utilize C4.

Giving it to the operator wouldn't work either imo. It's a class that does a fantastic job at pushing. It's good at medium range, and it's a valuable class to the team due to its healing / revives. If it has C4, it distracts from the healing / reviving role. It was always odd that it had the M320 in Battlefield 3... I role with the M320 on any weapon that it can be attached to.

Putting it on the Mechanic could be interesting... but I think it would have to replace the M320 instead of the sabotage. The M320 is a very powerful gadget, and I would argue that it's one of the most powerful gadgets in the game.

The enforcer would be able to spam gadgets regardless of what it has. The question is, what's the best gadget to spam?

If it was given the M320, players could sit at a distance and bombard a hotspot with endless explosives (I did this in BC2).

If it was given the sabotage gadget, then it might lead to players placing it on every vehicle they see.

The C4 could lead to players just sitting on the side of roads waiting for enemy vehicles to drive over their C4.

(From recent youtube videos)
Operator (AR's and Carbines):
-First Aid
-Revive
-Satellite Phone

Mechanic (SMG's):
- m320 / M79
-Sabotage
-Repair Tool

Enforcer (Shotguns & Battle Rifles):
-Ammo Box
-Breaching Charge
-Ballistics Shield

Professional (Snipers):
-Laser Tripmine
-Stealth Training
-Camera
The_Violator_NZ
NZ Enlisted: 2011-11-04
2014-12-11 22:51
Great discussion. I would just like to add: Please limit C4 to only ONE class. I'll let you guys work out which class is best, but having 2 classes with C4 in BF4 was a disaster...
I'm bigger and bolder and rougher and tougher, in other words sucker, there is no other. I'm the one and only Violator.
AeK_is_okay
US Enlisted: 2013-11-15
2014-12-11 23:00
Hmm..

Honestly, I would like to see the support role and healer role switched.
Like in bad company 2, give th assault the explosives; and let the support...do support roles.
RL is dead baby, RL is dead~
syf-CryptiK
AU Enlisted: 2011-10-25
2014-12-12 06:33 , edited 2014-12-12 06:36 by syf-CryptiK
DarkSlayer54 said:
-Lg-Cryp said:
While I do agree that the Professional Class is geared towards a more passive and defensive play style it is clear that each kit has a secondary play style dependent one what gadgets are equipped.
...
...
...
On the point you make about C4 spam on maps like Lockers this may only make a minimal difference however on the larger maps it will be a lot better limiting C4 so players can't camp Elevator doors or small key objective areas (BLOOD MONEY) with unlimited access to c4, would be extremely beneficial and by making the player look for help from another player, re-supplying them is a simple way of rewarding team play.
I'd agree with GoGoGadget. The Professional just doesn't make sense to hold the C4. Stealth Training could be used offensively, but it just wouldn't help on vehicle maps. While snipers can be used close range you're putting yourself at a huge disadvantage. You'd be playing against the strengths of the class in order to utilize C4.

Giving it to the operator wouldn't work either imo. It's a class that does a fantastic job at pushing. It's good at medium range, and it's a valuable class to the team due to its healing / revives. If it has C4, it distracts from the healing / reviving role. It was always odd that it had the M320 in Battlefield 3... I role with the M320 on any weapon that it can be attached to.

Putting it on the Mechanic could be interesting... but I think it would have to replace the M320 instead of the sabotage. The M320 is a very powerful gadget, and I would argue that it's one of the most powerful gadgets in the game.

The enforcer would be able to spam gadgets regardless of what it has. The question is, what's the best gadget to spam?

If it was given the M320, players could sit at a distance and bombard a hotspot with endless explosives (I did this in BC2).

If it was given the sabotage gadget, then it might lead to players placing it on every vehicle they see.

The C4 could lead to players just sitting on the side of roads waiting for enemy vehicles to drive over their C4.

(The current unique gadgets)
Operator (AR's and Carbines):
-First Aid
-Revive
-Satellite Phone

Mechanic (SMG's):
- m320 / M79
-Sabotage
-Repair Tool

Enforcer (Shotguns & Battle Rifles):
-Ammo Box
-Breaching Charge
-Ballistics Shield

Professional (Snipers):
-Laser Tripmine
-Stealth Training
-Camera


A few points that you misunderstood

When giving the Enforcer the M320 I said only the Smoke and the Flashbang NOT the HE spaming those two is a lot better than spamming Explosives.

On your point about laying C4 on the road and vehicles that's what it should be used for and that would be great if they used it that way, its what the mechanic class is all about hence why Im saying give it to either the Mechanic or the Professional(both can place the C4 and sit back and wait for the trap) the good thing is they CANT SPAM the C4 unless they seek out a team mate that has an ammo box this adds another whole risk vs reward. I do believe changing out booby trap for C4 would be a good turn as the booby trap sounds skilless and cheap, with the C4 you have to be paying attention to your target
instead of setting multiple traps and running away (I can assure you people will be pissed about this gadget)

In its current state C4 has no risk you don't have to seek out re-supply you can simply sit in the same spot and spam it.
A_Cool_Gorilla
Enlisted: 2011-10-30
2014-12-12 07:13
-Lg-Cryp said:
A few points that you misunderstood

When giving the Enforcer the M320 I said only the Smoke and the Flashbang NOT the HE spaming those two is a lot better than spamming Explosives.

On your point about laying C4 on the road and vehicles that's what it should be used for and that would be great if they used it that way, its what the mechanic class is all about hence why Im saying give it to either the Mechanic or the Professional(both can place the C4 and sit back and wait for the trap) the good thing is they CANT SPAM the C4 unless they seek out a team mate that has an ammo box this adds another whole risk vs reward. I do believe changing out booby trap for C4 would be a good turn as the booby trap sounds skilless and cheap, with the C4 you have to be paying attention to your target
instead of setting multiple traps and running away (I can assure you people will be pissed about this gadget)

In its current state C4 has no risk you don't have to seek out re-supply you can simply sit in the same spot and spam it.


The C4 on the road example I gave was the only thing I could think of. Personally, I just don't see C4 spam as an issue.

Limiting the M320 to smoke/flash/gas would be too big of a nerf imo. The HE version of it is great for any scenario, while the smoke/gas/flash are for more specific tasks. It would still be a useful gadget, but I couldn't see myself using it nearly as much.
syf-CryptiK
AU Enlisted: 2011-10-25
2014-12-12 08:02
DarkSlayer54 said:
-Lg-Cryp said:
A few points that you misunderstood

When giving the Enforcer the M320 I said only the Smoke and the Flashbang NOT the HE spaming those two is a lot better than spamming Explosives.

On your point about laying C4 on the road and vehicles that's what it should be used for and that would be great if they used it that way, its what the mechanic class is all about hence why Im saying give it to either the Mechanic or the Professional(both can place the C4 and sit back and wait for the trap) the good thing is they CANT SPAM the C4 unless they seek out a team mate that has an ammo box this adds another whole risk vs reward. I do believe changing out booby trap for C4 would be a good turn as the booby trap sounds skilless and cheap, with the C4 you have to be paying attention to your target
instead of setting multiple traps and running away (I can assure you people will be pissed about this gadget)

In its current state C4 has no risk you don't have to seek out re-supply you can simply sit in the same spot and spam it.
The C4 on the road example I gave was the only thing I could think of. Personally, I just don't see C4 spam as an issue.

Limiting the M320 to smoke/flash/gas would be too big of a nerf imo. The HE version of it is great for any scenario, while the smoke/gas/flash are for more specific tasks. It would still be a useful gadget, but I couldn't see myself using it nearly as much.

Im not saying take away the M320 HE at all

Example:

Mechanic

PDW
C4 or M320 HE
Tracer/Repair

Enforcer

ABR or Shotgun
Ammo Pack
Shield OR M320 FB/SMK/GAS

Its simple m320 HE stays with the Mechanic and the Enforcer gets the support variants.

On the point of C4 Spam it is very apparent on levels with small area key objectives so think about Blood Money and its Vault, Elevators just look what happens on Lockers in BF4 it will happen in Hardline and it isnt fun.
HARMONIZER1234
US Enlisted: 2011-10-25
2014-12-12 17:12 , edited 2014-12-12 17:13 by HARMONIZER1234
I say take the ammo pack away from any class and have ammo crates placed throughout the map. So that way no one class can camp and re supply themselves with anything.

Then there would be a cool gameplay change because you would have to risk leaving your spot to get some more ammo. And on the other side of that maybe the ammo crates would be a good spot to defend from the other team getting more ammo also
dirtydeathdog
US Enlisted: 2014-04-15
2014-12-12 18:07
Hi everyone,

Sorry it's taken me a while to comment, as you can imagine we're pretty busy! :)

Let me fuel the discussion some more. Here’s the list of the classes, their current loadouts, and our thoughts behind them. (Note this doesn’t take into account any global gadgets, melee, or grenades.)

OPERATOR - Role: Primary Gunfighter and Medic
• First Aid Pack...Heal teammates
• Survivalist...Revive yourself after an explosive kill
• Revive...Revive teammates

This class is powerful, but balanced now. The Operator’s extensive selection of carbines and assault rifles gives him a wide engagement range and the medical function of the class is very important for teamwork. However, his limited number of gadgets makes him a little bit more accessible to new players and also limits his flexibility, meaning other classes are needed to support him.


MECHANIC - Role: Gadgets and Vehicles
• 40mm GL...Destroy vehicles
• Repair Tool...Repair vehicles, disarm explosive traps
• Sabotage...Trap vehicles and objectives
• Armored Insert...Survive a sniper shot to the chest
• Sat Phone...Place a spawn point for your teammates

The Mechanic started off as a pure vehicle-based role, but vehicles are somewhat less prominent in Hardline, so it evolved over time. Where it is right now is a pretty sweet spot. Being the “gadget guy” means he gets an eclectic collection of useful toys, but he still retains his importance in vehicle-based maps and modes. A great complement to the Operator, as his close-range SMGs can destroy nearby enemies effectively.


ENFORCER – Role: Support
• Ammo Bag...Resupply teammates
• Breaching Charge....Destroy walls & vehicles, set traps at objectives
• Riot Shield...Defend yourself and teammates

The Enforcer is still a bad-ass. Capable close range shotguns and long range battle rifles, along with the ability to provide ammunition to teammates and shield them from damage are powerful abilities. In addition, he’s got the every-popular Breaching Charge which allows him some tactical flexibility and brings a great deal of appeal to the class.


PROFESSIONAL – Role: Traps and Intel
• Laser Tripmine...Lay traps for agents
• Camera...Spots approaching enemies
• Decoy...Deceives enemies
• Stealth Training...Reduce enemy awareness of your movements

The hard-hitting DMRs and SRs the professional has can be used to secure an objective from a distance, while his rapid-fire sidearm can be used close-in. The camera and LTMs can help the pro survive being flanked and ambushed, and can be used tactically to defend objectives to assist his team. In addition, stealth training lets the pro get up close and personal, getting the drop on unsuspecting enemies.
DDD Twitter: @dirtydeathdog
GoGoGadgetLoL
AU Enlisted: 2012-03-11
2014-12-12 18:33
Nice info, thanks for the post DDD.

After reading that, it's even more clear that the enforcer is the best candidate to have the Breaching Charge - it obviously synergises with his other close-range weapons & gadgets.

@Cryptik On the topic - first off, I think the whole 'problem' only occurs on certain maps in BF4 anyway, (64p lockers being the main one), and class balance shouldn't be based around one issue on one (or maybe a couple) of maps. Instead, if the issue of explosive spamming is actually prevalent in Hardline, then instead of moving around class gadgets to try and ham-fist a solution, instead, there should be an option for counterplay, for players who are concerned about it (although this counterplay needs to be very limited/specific, as the C4 should be a high reward weapon).

Take the Riot Shield for example - in BF4, one piece of C4 kills you with the Riot Shield IIRC. If this was changed, so that the max damage ONE piece of C4 applies against a Riot-shielded player is not 100% HP, but rather 80%, that might be a good way of dealing with it. It's safe to say that the Riot Shield isn't particularly strong right now in BF4, so a change like that could really help - even if it just means that the enemy player has to put down 2 C4s to blow you up, that eventually adds up with resupply time etc.
syf-CryptiK
AU Enlisted: 2011-10-25
2014-12-12 18:39 , edited 2014-12-12 18:51 by syf-CryptiK
Thanks for the reply and the small blurbs have opened my eyes a little more on the subject. I have bolded my proposed changes within the quotes.

dirtydeathdog said:
MECHANIC - Role: Gadgets and Vehicles
• 40mm GL...Destroy vehicles
• Repair Tool...Repair vehicles, disarm explosive traps
• Sabotage...Trap vehicles and objectives REMOVE: Add C4/Breach NOTE: M320 HE and C4 Not selectable together.
• Armored Insert...Survive a sniper shot to the chest
• Sat Phone...Place a spawn point for your teammates

The Mechanic started off as a pure vehicle-based role, but vehicles are somewhat less prominent in Hardline, so it evolved over time. Where it is right now is a pretty sweet spot. Being the “gadget guy” means he gets an eclectic collection of useful toys, but he still retains his importance in vehicle-based maps and modes. A great complement to the Operator, as his close-range SMGs can destroy nearby enemies effectively.



From my view small description and overview of the class solidifies my stance on moving C4/Breaching Charge over to the Mechanic completely replacing Sabotage.

Why? Well Sabotage seems like a cheap gadget(Im not sure how I can word it better) as it seems to reward carelessness and requires no attention after being set. I can see this becoming quite a large annoyance(This is all based off the description not gameplay) mainly because I can see so many people complaining about being randomly blown up. I for one would abuse the Sabotage gadget just to piss people off and watch the world burn. Why would replacing it with C4 work? Because it isn't a set and forget item it requires attention and thought to be rewarded and it is a great anti-vehicle gadget.


dirtydeathdog said:
ENFORCER – Role: Support
• Ammo Bag...Resupply teammates
• Breaching Charge REMOVE: Add M320 FB/SMOKE/GAS(NOT HE)
• Riot Shield...Defend yourself and teammates

The Enforcer is still a bad-ass. Capable close range shotguns and long range battle rifles, along with the ability to provide ammunition to teammates and shield them from damage are powerful abilities. In addition, he’s got the every-popular Breaching Charge which allows him some tactical flexibility and brings a great deal of appeal to the class.


So onto the point of the topic and that I think C4 should be removed from this class. Why? Easy to camp infantry play areas, I'll set a scenario;

I'm playing Blood Money, I'm and Enforcer with Ammo and C4 equipped. I walk up and place exactly 1 piece of C4 around the vault or a popular entrance and I do this for two reasons:

1. One piece is enough to kill infantry easy.
2. If I use them one by one that re-supply time wont be much of a hindrance.

I then move off to my little hiding spot and wait for the perfect moment to detonate and rinse and repeat the steps.


Now I can imagine a common counter argument would be "but he is risking himself by walking out and planting it each time" If the person is a decent player they will get away with this very very easily and will have what seems like and unlimited flow of C4.

Its not a fun way to play by no means but people do it.

Lets throw the same scenario at a Mechanic with C4 now. The Mechanic will require a few extra steps and risks in his master plan to cause some annoyance. The main additional step being having a team mate with ammo to help him out, if he doesn't have one well he needs to seek one out and that's where the whole risk vs reward part comes in because he can't sit in that corner for half the round he has to go back out into the map and seek ammo.

Now onto why the Enforcer should gain the M320 FB/Smoke/Gas.
Who would really choose any of the other variants besides HE? I haven't seen them used in Pub play for BF4 in a long time(the last time was when the M320 FB was known to crash games). Adding this to a class where the selections are thin will encourage its use because in my opinion these are going to be such a waste on the Mechanic class he already has much better choices.

Giving these to the Enforcer will almost ensure its use as most people don't particularly use the riot shield all that much. And these are great support gadgets they help people push and they help people defend, and I think they compliment the class amazingly.

I know some people will agree and others wont but I do hope it can be play tested in some form because I think it may bring great balance to both classes.

And thank you again Thad for taking the time to listen to the community.

@GoGo.

While it may only be an issue on some maps in BF4 we have to remember Hardline is taking a more infantry based turn for the franchise. Game modes like Blood Money and Heist will focus on 1 or 2 main objectives unlike your typical conquest game. This is where I see a possible issue arising.

The change isn't about ham fisting it at all its about changing two classes for a better balance while also suiting their description. The changes that I have suggested would not only bring use out of other gadgets(M320 Flash etc) which IMO will get little to none but will also discourage being a solo objective camper which we all know to be quite annoying and also bring a little more teamwork into the fold. Hamfisting it would be like throwing it to another class and saying thats its problem now. Visceral have moved gadgets around and have done a great job the Mechanic is shaping up well I just think a small tweak would be great.
ItWasMeantToBe
NL Enlisted: 2013-01-07
2014-12-12 18:50
-Lg-Cryp said:
Thanks for the reply and the small blurbs have opened my eyes a little more on the subject. I have bolded my proposed changes within the quotes.

dirtydeathdog said:
MECHANIC - Role: Gadgets and Vehicles
• 40mm GL...Destroy vehicles
• Repair Tool...Repair vehicles, disarm explosive traps
• Sabotage...Trap vehicles and objectives REMOVE: Add C4/Breach NOTE: M320 HE and C4 Not selectable together.
• Armored Insert...Survive a sniper shot to the chest
• Sat Phone...Place a spawn point for your teammates

The Mechanic started off as a pure vehicle-based role, but vehicles are somewhat less prominent in Hardline, so it evolved over time. Where it is right now is a pretty sweet spot. Being the “gadget guy” means he gets an eclectic collection of useful toys, but he still retains his importance in vehicle-based maps and modes. A great complement to the Operator, as his close-range SMGs can destroy nearby enemies effectively.



From my view small description and overview of the class solidifies my stance on moving C4/Breaching Charge over to the Mechanic completely replacing Sabotage.

Why? Well Sabotage seems like a cheap gadget(Im not sure how I can word it better) as it seems to reward carelessness and requires no attention after being set. I can see this becoming quite a large annoyance(This is all based off the description not gameplay) mainly because I can see so many people complaining about being randomly blown up. I for one would abuse the Sabotage gadget just to piss people off and watch the world burn. Why would replacing it with C4 work? Because it isn't a set and forget item it requires attention and thought to be rewarded and it is a great anti-vehicle gadget.


dirtydeathdog said:
ENFORCER – Role: Support
• Ammo Bag...Resupply teammates
• Breaching Charge REMOVE: Add M320 FB/SMOKE/GAS(NOT HE)
• Riot Shield...Defend yourself and teammates

The Enforcer is still a bad-ass. Capable close range shotguns and long range battle rifles, along with the ability to provide ammunition to teammates and shield them from damage are powerful abilities. In addition, he’s got the every-popular Breaching Charge which allows him some tactical flexibility and brings a great deal of appeal to the class.


So onto the point of the topic and that I think C4 should be removed from this class. Why? Easy to camp infantry play areas, I'll set a scenario;

I'm playing Blood Money, I'm and Enforcer with Ammo and C4 equipped. I walk up and place exactly 1 piece of C4 around the vault or a popular entrance and I do this for two reasons:

1. One piece is enough to kill infantry easy.
2. If I use them one by one that re-supply time wont be much of a hindrance.

I then move off to my little hiding spot and wait for the perfect moment to detonate and rinse and repeat the steps.


Now I can imagine a common counter argument would be "but he is risking himself by walking out and planting it each time" If the person is a decent player they will get away with this very very easily and will have what seems like and unlimited flow of C4.

Its not a fun way to play by no means but people do it.

Lets throw the same scenario at a Mechanic with C4 now. The Mechanic will require a few extra steps and risks in his master plan to cause some annoyance. The main additional step being having a team mate with ammo to help him out, if he doesn't have one well he needs to seek one out and that's where the whole risk vs reward part comes in because he can't sit in that corner for half the round he has to go back out into the map and seek ammo.

Now onto why the Enforcer should gain the M320 FB/Smoke/Gas.
Who would really choose any of the other variants besides HE? I haven't seen them used in Pub play for BF4 in a long time(the last time was when the M320 FB was known to crash games). Adding this to a class where the selections are thin will encourage its use because in my opinion these are going to be such a waste on the Mechanic class he already has much better choices.

Giving these to the Enforcer will almost ensure its use as most people don't particularly use the riot shield all that much. And these are great support gadgets they help people push and they help people defend, and I think they compliment the class amazingly.

I know some people will agree and others wont but I do hope it can be play tested in some form because I think it may bring great balance to both classes.

And thank you again Thad for taking the time to listen to the community.

@GoGo.

While it may only be an issue on some maps in BF4 we have to remember Hardline is taking a more infantry based turn for the franchise. Game modes like Blood Money and Heist will focus on 1 or 2 main objectives unlike your typical conquest game. This is where I see a possible issue arising.

The change isn't about ham fisting it at all its about changing two classes for a better balance while also suiting their description. The changes that I have suggested would not only bring use out of other gadgets(M320 Flash etc) which IMO will get little to none but will also discourage being a solo objective camper which we all know to be quite annoying and also bring a little more teamwork into the fold. Hamfisting it would be like throwing it to another class and saying thats its problem now.


Give this man a cookie, I support everything you mentioned
Skype: Paul Bakker (INFsleeper) ; Youtube: INFsleeper ; twitter: @INFsleeper
MrShatner916
Enlisted: 2012-11-04
2014-12-12 18:51
Any coffee included with purcahse?
I like coffee.
FarCry2112
US Enlisted: 2011-12-15
2014-12-12 23:32
The_Violator_NZ said:
Great discussion. I would just like to add: Please limit C4 to only ONE class. I'll let you guys work out which class is best, but having 2 classes with C4 in BF4 was a disaster...


Agree completely!
graham_cracka15
US Enlisted: 2012-07-29
2014-12-12 23:42
I really don't like how useless the Professional is. I think he really needs the Sat Phone to play a team role.
 
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