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Anti air launchers. Need some help. (PC)

Maeson
EE Enlisted: 2012-02-02
2012-04-11 19:14 , edited 2012-04-11 19:15 by Maeson
Alright, first off with my first impression: To all of those who think the Stingers/Iglas are completely useful and in some ways even OP: "What universe do you live in?" And: "How do I get there?" Because it really does sound like a fun place to be.

This is what I have gotten into my noggin so far:

1) If the opponent flies too close to the ground, no lock on takes place. Under the radar? They track by infa-red, I.E. heat, so I don't think that should save them. Further research tells me this is an unlock. Well, small favors I guess as I understand; You can have only one countermea- oh wait, next point.
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2) The pilot and co-pilot both can separately deploy countermeasures. Why? I tried to lock on to a chopper doing circles around me for 20 or so seconds and nothing happened! I can only guess they were alternating between ECM Jammers and/or Low Altitude. I bet even if I could of managed to lock and launch, the flares would of gone off.
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3) Flares are infinite and reload about as fast as a soldier can reload, lock-on and fire a second rocket. Rockets however, are not infinite.

So, this brings me to my question. How am I supposed to use these? I have hit a few of them. Igla: 65 shots, 5 kills. Stinger: 70 shots, 2 kills.
Something miiight be a little off.

And PLEASE don't come telling me "Use Javelin and SOFLAM". That's ignoring the problem, not a solution. Try again.
Also, people saying that "They are OP." ..... How? HOW?! Explain to me, in detail, how they are OP. What do I have to do, to make my Stinger/Igla OP?
They are NOT effective against any aircraft pilot who's been in the air longer then 30 minutes total in his/her entire BF3 career. They are not a GTFO weapon if you can't even land a hit.

So yes. I am a bit frustrated with them. And I'd like to hear some tips or tricks of the trade on how to use these weapons effectively. The search function proved ineffective in that task.

Thank you in advance.
Freefallhalo
US Enlisted: 2011-10-25
2012-04-13 00:08
I agree with you. People that have all the unlocks for aircraft will destory pretty much anything. So I hope they buff the Mobile AA and hand held AA. Because the balance is way off in favor of Aircraft vs the Anti aircraft. I have even noticed there a bug where you try to lock on with a hand held AA weapon and it won't start tracking the target. I have to resight the target to get a tone for a lock. Which is a pain the butt.
Neddy990
GB Enlisted: 2011-10-31
2012-04-13 00:26
SOFLAM + Javalin doesn't work anymore, ECM distracts the Javalin and the tanks Guided Shells. You can't get a lock for a few seconds after the ECM, by the time you can get another lock the ECM has reloaded.

Stinger and Igla is impossible to lock with below radar and I think are distracted by the ECM like Flares, not totally sure though below radar might be why I couldn't lock again.

Guided Shell is easily outrun by a jet, they basically just turn and the shell misses, but you have to get a lock first which doesn't happen very often as it needs 2 locks in a tank and jets move too high and too fast most of the time.

Aircraft were OP before the patch, now they are impossible to deal with. The only fix I have found is find a team with a decent Jet pilot, or do what I mostly do and play maps without them.

I am on PS3 though, not sure what maps don't have them on PC.
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Aguycalledhaney
Enlisted: 2012-03-30
2012-04-13 01:46 , edited 2012-04-13 01:48 by Aguycalledhaney
It needs to be this way. Realism would demand that things be as you say, but the gameplay wouldn't allow it. As things stand now, handheld antiair weapons act as a deterrent to keep choppers from lingering in a specific area. If they were buffed, choppers would be rendered useless by any half-organized squad, or even a completely disorganized rabble on a more packed server.

In my mind, you have Infantry destroyed by tanks, tanks destroyed by copters, and copters destroyed by jets, jets being destroyed by OTHER jets (or mobileAA), with some healthy mixing in between. To me, if there is zero teamwork this ladder doesn't change. If there's even a little teamwork the ladder disappears.

In short, try not to expect to take down a flying 2-man tank with your crappy shoulder launcher unless you have backup.
Maeson
EE Enlisted: 2012-02-02
2012-04-13 17:25 , edited 2012-04-13 17:25 by Maeson
Aguycalledhaney said:
It needs to be this way. Realism would demand that things be as you say, but the gameplay wouldn't allow it. As things stand now, handheld antiair weapons act as a deterrent to keep choppers from lingering in a specific area. If they were buffed, choppers would be rendered useless by any half-organized squad, or even a completely disorganized rabble on a more packed server.

In my mind, you have Infantry destroyed by tanks, tanks destroyed by copters, and copters destroyed by jets, jets being destroyed by OTHER jets (or mobileAA), with some healthy mixing in between. To me, if there is zero teamwork this ladder doesn't change. If there's even a little teamwork the ladder disappears.

In short, try not to expect to take down a flying 2-man tank with your crappy shoulder launcher unless you have backup.

They are not a deterrent. Deterrent would mean that there is danger involved. There isn't. There is none. A single hit with these weapons will at BEST do a vehicle disabled. That means that 8/10 times, the chopper is landed gently. Repaired, and in the air again in less then a minute.
The only real effect this can have on the pilots is getting annoyed and having to press a button. A button. Just one press. And the guy on the ground, who is struggling to get a lock, struggling to SURVIVE the next 10 seconds to get this rocket in the air. And attacked from all directions: air, ground and sea, this soldier manages to get a lock, get this rocket in the air. And all the pilot has to do is press one. single. button.
And all that effort, gone.

You bring out the point of rock-paper-scissors. A concept that this game series has prided itself upon abiding. But what of maps that don't have jets? Or mobile AAs. Choppers are a rock without a paper then. Actually, when jets are involved. How many times do they actively hunt for choppers? Most of the time, I have seen them trying to dogfight or on the even rarer case, take out ground armor. But then again, that's my experience.
Also, you forget one aspect of the RPS. It's not a food chain, there is no bottom or top. It's a circle. And right now, this game is a broken one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0QU7wYGqaQ [youtube.com] This trailer, from a previous BF game illustrates this concept the best.

Also, if players are supposed to team up to take down a chopper. Then the chopper has to work with it's team to keep it up there. If there is one thing, that can do it all, and doesn't need help. It is broken and overpowered. A helo is an anti-everything flying "tank", as you so eloquently put it. And we have weapons that are, by design, supposed to counter that.

it's just those weapons don't seem to work.
WarD0minat0r
US Enlisted: 2011-10-25
2012-04-13 17:35
The best chance you get against a Heli, is RPG.
MANY, and I mean MANY players now fly low for Below Radar to take effect, therefore, RPGs should suffice.
I know its not the answer you are looking for, but it is what it is.
I can shoot down Helis now with RPGs quite easily, even an experienced Pilot. Im about to upload my RPG Heli kill video, so you can see if there.
I get my Heli shotdown a lot when im piloting. You can check out this video of mine where I get shutdown by the RPGs quite a lot lol.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REtK2WqNOsY [youtube.com]


But yeah, Stingers were/are never effective. They are just there to put scares into some pilots.



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IronMonkey008
Enlisted: 2011-10-25
2012-04-13 17:48 , edited 2012-04-13 18:09 by IronMonkey008
Yea taking out choppers other than having a decent chopper team on your side as well is near impossible. there are just too many ways for a decent chopper pair to avoid everything from the ground. I'm all for good pilot teams being rewarded for their time and skil and I don't think one Engi should be able to take it down, but i think it's gotten out of hand and easier than it should be if just an average team can do nearly as well as a good one. Like already said you are better off trying to hit it with the SMAW/RPG which is pretty sad. Either that or try to have a squad dedicated to taking them down, but even that isn't a guarantee and they won't be helping much with anything else.
OrbOfDeception
US Enlisted: 2011-12-03
2012-04-13 18:08
I quit using the stinger/igla a long time ago. My accuracy with them was about 12% I think. Prepatch mobile AA was good. It could stand up to helis and jets as long as the heli/jets weren't working together to kill AA. Now however, AA missiles miss the jets so much. Even when they do hit, it's not even a kill. I have hundreds of kills with both the rus and usmc AA, but now, it's very hard to get kills (not to mention the infantry dmg nerf and armor nerf).

A good jet or heli pilot can win the entire game for a team. If mobile AA gets reverted to prepatch version, it would be a lot more balanced. I've given up on stinger/igla so I dont' really care about what they do to it.
kassler77
SE Enlisted: 2011-10-26
2012-04-13 18:08
After the patch it takes one shot with the RPG/SMAW against choppers.
OrbOfDeception
US Enlisted: 2011-12-03
2012-04-13 18:13
Not that easy to kill heli with rpg/smaw. Most chopper pilots aren't stupid enough to fly low/slow enough.
bslaveboy
ZA Enlisted: 2012-04-02
2012-04-13 19:23 , edited 2012-04-13 19:24 by bslaveboy
Maeson said:
So yes. I am a bit frustrated with them. And I'd like to hear some tips or tricks of the trade on how to use these weapons effectively. The search function proved ineffective in that task.

I'm a n00b, but what I did when equipping Stingers/Iglas was to treat them kinda like knives. It's great fun to run up behind someone and knife them, but they have to co-operate by not turning around and shooting you in the head. It's a weapon of opportunity, not one you rely on primarily.

So I would generally happily run around trying to capture flags and getting my head blown off in the process, but every now and then a chopper would appear and I would take a pot-shot at it.

If I couldn't get a lock it would fly away and I'd run off, or I'd wait for it to be looking the other way and run off before someone pitched up and shot me in the head or knifed me.

If I could get a lock on it, I would take the shot (preferably when it wasn't looking at me), forget about it, and then run away before too many people came to investigate the source of the smoke trail leading to where I was. Occasionally I would then get the "Vehicle Disabled" message, or sometimes (or sometimes followed by) "Vehicle Destroyed". What I wouldn't do would be to watch the missile miss and try line up a second shot, 'cause that invariably resulted in a nasty surprise for myself.

The value of Stingers/Iglas IMO is to give choppers a nasty surprise every now and then, also, force pilots to use up their unlock slots on defenses, rather than something nasty to kill me with. If your primary aim is to take out choppers, then fly a jet.

Just my opinion.
Zzenith
Enlisted: 2011-11-01
2012-04-13 20:09 , edited 2012-04-13 20:10 by Zzenith
I totally agree with the poster, the balance of this game is rubbish where aircraft and helicopters are concerned. At the moment only jets can counter Helicopters and other Jets and if one side has better pilots the balance is screwed big time and just makes the experience fustrating.

It shouldnt matter how good a pilot you are if your going over a certain kill death ratio there is clearly something wrong with the balance,

This is a game and balance should be at the forefront, every piece of equipment on the battlefield should have several counters. For the sake of balance nothing should be able to dominate totally. There are nowhere near enough effective anti air in this game. If stingers are to be this uselss then there should be at least 1 dedicated AA armoured vehicle for every air vehicle.

On another point I always thought that if in a vehicle you kill an infantry man then due to the clear advantage you have you should recieve at least half the points compared to infantry on infantry also no vehicle should be able to cap especially helicopters.
JRavens
US Enlisted: 2012-02-12
2012-04-13 21:40
I have shot down a few helicopters and even jets post patch with the IGLA/Stinger. It seems the effective use of these weapons requires a few things:

1) Do not directly engage an air unit. If you have his attention and he is bearing down on you the shoulder launched AA will not save your bacon. The cannon and rockets will completely lay waste to you and everything in your immediate area before you can do anything to them.
Also apparently there is some weird glitch where a missile that goes directly into the front of a heli explodes, but does no damage (good job DICE!)

2) When you see an aircraft moving near you, but not coming STRAIGHT at you throw your AA up and see if you can obtain a lock. If you do obtain a lock wait a second or two. Don't fire immediately! Novice pilots will often pop flares after hearing the tone for a few seconds thinking they have been fired on. Many times also an aircraft (especially a jet) will be forced to deploy flares against another source (mobile AA or another jet). Once the target deploys flares let the flares drift down for a second before launch. Timing isn't really as hard as it sounds in this post. Once you have done it you will immediately think "OK so THAT's when i need to fire". Don't look down the tube forever though. If you are standing there for 10 seconds or so (if not sooner) you will be killed by an infantry unit so if you can't get a lock then move on.
That brings up another point. Don't stand in the middle of a field pointing up into the air (duh). Find a wall or outcropping to put at your back while you engage the aircraft.

3) The other way to score a hit works like pre-patch. If a heli is circling (but not bearing down on you or your immediate area) and you get a lock but he doesn't pop his flares right away then you can fire and IMMEDIATELY bring the AA back up and re-obtain the lock. Just like before let those flares die just a little as they drift down (they should already be dissipating by the time you have your second lock anyway), but don't let him move out of range and then fire off the second round. Unless he has gunner flares he WILL be hit and disabled.

It is very frustrating when a skilled pilot and gunner keep preventing you from destroying them, but understand that this is not the norm. This scenario generally only occurs when the pilot and gunner are in comm with each other and are working as a unit. In these cases (and they do happen) they will be a major pain and require your team to work on defeating them. Most likely only jets will be effective against them.

The vehicle disabled thing is quite common. Even mobile and static AA have a hard time getting kills. Pilots and gunners will often eject before AA kills them. More often then not it takes a one hit kill like a tank round, RPG or lasered jav to completely destroy an aircraft and it's crew.

So TL:DR = use the IGLA or Stinger as an opportunity weapon and don't expect to OHK cause that is not how it works.
kershangg
SG Enlisted: 2011-10-24
2012-04-13 22:23
2 ways to balance - >

Hits for low damage, but high probability - not going to happen with a lock on weapon.

Hits for high damage (80% dmg with stingers), but hit chance must be reduced - otherwise it's like firing a Javelin at a smokeless tank. You do have a slight window of opportunity of a few seconds after the 2nd set of flares are fired.

In general, stingers are a deterrant weapon, not a kill weapon. It can kill and disable enemy air which get careless. What it does (when you have friendly armor support) is to make the heli flee to recharge his flares, and not stay at low altitude for fear of RPG/Tank shells, which are the main deterrants for below radar pilots. Fleeing helis don't have the angle to harass your troops. Also, helis are defenseless against jets.

I think they should reduce the height ceiling for below radar to 20. 25m is just too easy to circle strafe at and avoid RPGs (for helis, I wouldn't mind higher below radar ceilings for jets)
urExWifesLawyer
TW Enlisted: 2011-10-25
2012-04-13 22:54
kershanqqq, I see that you know what you're doing in-game. But I have to disagree about below radar. Choppers take great risk flying below 25m as it leaves them very vulnerable to RPG and random small-arms fire. God help you if there is a tank nearby that no one spotted. Flying that low also decreases the vehicle's offensive potential and battlefield awareness.
Maeson
EE Enlisted: 2012-02-02
2012-04-13 22:58
Thank you Ravens. I've come to expect as much. Today, twice did my AA rockets blow up at the tail of the jet and did no damage. I was dissapointed much. I did manage to nab a jet kill though. Had the stinger out, saw it pop flares and was all "I don't care there are 5 enemies around me! That b*tch is going down!"

I've taken on an almost overzealous hate to air vehicles.

As for ideas how to "improve" the AA shoulder launchers... I was thinking on maybe if the shooter kept on holding the lock on the aircraft, even after launch, that the countermeasures wouldn't matter. Instead of fire and forget, you'd have to hold your aim on the target. Extra effort, extra pay-off.

As of this post, my Igla has 5 kills out of 149 shots with a 30.9% hit rate. Stinger's at 5 to 136 with 19.9%. Now... I think there is something a bit off when a weapon has a 30.9% accuracy rate. But only 5 kills to 149 hits. That means... 46 shots have hit. Though granted this might be the AoE damage hitting a transport chopper AND the passengers. I've had my accuracy bumped up to 400% in 2142 when using the AR shotgun.
achillespecies
SG Enlisted: 2011-10-24
2012-04-14 01:12
Killing with a stinger is very hard.. you'll have better luck locking on to a Scout heli which has only one person activating countermeasures which is the pilot... provided there are no engineers on board repairing; it should be an easy kill...
Try in Damavand Peak, or 32 player Norshahr Canals

Killing an attack heli requires some coordinated teamplay with other stinger carriers... you can't do it alone...
the process requires 1 or 2 persons to lock on and fire their stingers to waste both the counter measure; so that the 3rd shot will hit.
Look for attack helis that are too high to go below radar.

Attack helis are weak to laser guided weapons (javelin, tank guided shell (especially this one)) so consider switching to this if you want to take out attack helis.... take note this requires coordinated teamplay as well.

Killing jets won't work for the time being. Although what i found out is jets can still get hit if they are slower than 300airspeed...... i've got nailed a couple of times while doing loops getting stuck at low speed while engaging an enemy jet.

However as a pilot; i can tell you how distracting a lock on sound is.... what you can do is continue locking on to a heli or a jet; and just keep locking on to it without firing.... it might not grant u a kill; but it helps distract them.
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InsipidOyster2
Enlisted: 2012-03-13
2012-04-14 10:28
try locking on and only fire when they are very close: almost garanteed disable
Ixtilion
VA Enlisted: 2011-10-24
2012-04-14 10:34
C4 + jet.
Go for a run for the chopper, if you cant kill him just jihad the f*ck out of it :D
GojiraTL
SE Enlisted: 2011-10-27
2012-04-14 10:38
Here's what I've come down to.

If you use the AA weaponry correctly it can be devastating for the enemy, ONLY fire if the enemy has already popped flares or fly directly above you, that way your are almost guaranteed a hit. Me and my friends spread out on a line with about 25 metres between us, all having AA on the mountain in Kharg Island, no enemies were passing through there because simply, they died whatever they did. We kept that tactic going and that allowed our team to cap all the objectives in which we later ran out to fight, we died and switched to AT Weaponry instead to defend the newly captured base from ground invasions.

It's really useful in the right hands, keep experimenting.
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