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Team Balancer FAQ

Wonxif
SE Enlisted: 2013-03-26
2015-09-11 18:35
Yo!

Alot of you have been asking questions about the Team Balancer, how it works, issues etc. Here is an FAQ brought to you by our good friends at DICE LA, David Sirland and John David Olovsson. If you have any other questions, leave them in the thread and we will see if we can get some replies back.

My squad gets stuck in the defending team every round!
- This is a shortcoming in the balancer where the best squad in the server will by default be placed on the first team every round. We will look into getting this fixed. However, other squads will still be able to end up playing the same role multiple rounds in a row, but this should be less common and shouldn't be a problem.


The balancer split up my squad. You said that it would keep squads together!
- The official balancer does NOT ever split up squads. If that happened to you then you were probably playing on a ranked server that was running a custom third party balancer which is much more aggressive than the official one.


I was moved to the losing team!
- The official balancer ONLY moves players during the end of a round, never during the round. If you were moved during the round then this must have been the work of a custom third party balancer on that particular server.


I was playing with a lot of friends in two separate squads, and we got moved to different teams!
- With the squad capacity being 5 players, there is no intention for the balancer to keep any larger group than that together. While this could technically be done, it would make it much more difficult to balance the game, and this would be unfair to the majority of the players who do not have a large clan to team up with. If you want to play together with that many players, maybe you should try coordinating matches between yourselves and other platoons.


The teams are still unbalanced or even more unbalanced than before!
- First of all, make sure that you are playing on a server that is actually running the new official balancer, and NOT a custom third party one.

That said, even the new balancer has some severe limitations in that it only moves players between rounds. That means that it will have an especially hard time coping if many players decide to leave a specific team without new players joining, for example.

A balancer that actively moves players during the round can have a higher success rate, but those are often too aggressive for the average server and many players have given feedback that they are strongly opposed to being moved during the round, especially to the losing team.


The balancer caused uneven team sizes in the beginning of the round!
- Because the balancer runs at end of round only, it means that if a large amount of players leaves the server during level loading or early in the next game, the balancer simply cannot do anything about it except to wait for new players to join and fill in the gap. This is an unfortunate side effect of balancing at end of round, but not easily fixed since players generally leave a few minutes into the next round, and then it would be too late to rebuild the teams.


Why don't you balance based on some better stat than the skill value?
- While we understand your concerns, we have investigated using other stats such as KDR, KPM, SPM, Rank, and other more teamplay oriented values as well, but when experimenting and running Simulations, we found that the skill value did end up producing the best balance out of all these options.


What effect has the new balancer had so far?
- We have crunched some numbers to get some interesting before and after comparisons. This was done primarily on PS4 servers (PC was avoided so we wouldn't get any influence by custom balancers), and for some values even only official servers.

For Conquest Large servers, the average K/D of the winning team used to be 1.185, and 0.878 for the losing team. With the balancer those numbers are instead 1.132 and 0.910, respectively. If we imagine a perfectly balanced game being an average K/D of 1.000 for both teams, then the winning team's advantage has been reduced by 28.6%, and the losing team's disadvantage has been reduced by 26.2%. The balancer has especially helped to reduce the very unbalanced rounds. Up until now, the chances of the attackers having an average K/D over 1.5 was almost 10%. The chance of such unbalanced rounds has now halved to less than 5%. This is based on a set of 4,000 completed games from before the patch and 6,000 after, not the CTE.

Looking at normal ticket count servers (800 tickets per team), about 33% of all CQL games ended with 450 - 0 or worse. That number is now 24% with the skill balancer. On average, the winning team's tickets has gone down a bit, but is still in the low 300s.

Even on Rush, given the problems mentioned in the first point, we have still seen some improvements to the balance between the teams in terms of number of kills and K/Ds when comparing winning and losing teams.
Battlefield Engagement Manager @EA_DICE, find me on Twitter @TheFixnow!
Machini5t
SB Enlisted: 2015-07-31
2015-09-11 21:21
The folks that care to complain about Team Balance are those players that define others by their K/D ratio.
Those players that have a high skill would prefer to be surrounded with like-skilled players of comparable K/D.

Have the Developers considered to add a Server Browsing option for those people with High K/D ratios?
Perhaps it would make those folks feel more at home with Like-Skilled players and the complaints about Squad or Team unfairness would be greatly reduced.
~Don't worry, play Crappy... Don't worry, play Crappy~
blindsniper63
GB Enlisted: 2013-10-04
2015-09-12 10:51
When playing on Altai/Dragon Pass the enemy team was just camped at the bomber deployment flag,we took all other flags and so won by a considerate amount of tickets.Now normally we could win the next 6/7 games but I was then moved to that team,now all of a sudden I end up trying to cap flags on my own while the same bunch of guys are camped at the bomber flag again.How is this fair to me?I've also noticed that a lot of players are now leaving the game at the end to save getting stuck in this situation.Please just remove the balancing to before the patch thank you.
Sjangsung
NL Enlisted: 2014-06-04
2015-09-12 14:01
Its a fair choice from DICE, TB will be a improvement.
test
Mamba334
US Enlisted: 2014-02-11
2015-09-13 19:27 , edited 2015-09-13 19:28 by Mamba334
True Balancer sucks. It only balances at the END of the round. So rapage is what you'll end up with. Trust me. Months of trying it out.

I went with Multibalancer and it works unstacking and balancing by RoundSPM while the game is actively being played verses the end result. Good luck getting someone to help you with it. You can find it on myprocon website, but it's a book to read and a lot of settings to learn. It has taken me months to get help on this. I had one guy help me but now he won't reply back with a known issue. My luck. Oh well. But if you can get help setting that up (MB) then that will be best.

People always switch sides right at the end to get on the winning team and that throws off the balance. You'll want to stop that from happening with this plugin.

I'm not going to promote the plugin anymore because I am still in the process of trying to get it set up correctly.

Once I see it work, I'll let you know the outcome!

Good luck Sir.
SCPD_Blasphemous
US Enlisted: 2012-09-06
2015-09-14 02:42
This post has been removed by the Battlelog administrators.
mpls_big_daddy
US Enlisted: 2013-12-11
2015-09-14 02:51
^^ What Metal said.
But, this balancer seems to punish the lone wolf more than the squad player. My squad goes untouched and not moved if there are three or more on the squad. If there are less players, then we are scattered.
Even if there are only two ppl in a squad, they should not be split.
Ban rock but paper fine. - Scissors
Maqus99
US Enlisted: 2014-12-02
2015-09-14 04:30
So are there any legit 64 player servers on pc that don't split up squads? Nothing is more infuriating than being a squad leader of a decent squad to only be switched to the crap team with 100 tickets remaining. I was rolling with the same three guys for over two hours only to get swapped after doing 800 tickets worth of work.

I try to do normal conquest but it's impossible to find a server that doesn't do this or switches me multiple times. Also I'm not joinin said servers team speak to prevent this.
SnipedArm
GB Enlisted: 2011-10-30
2015-09-14 11:27
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mmarkweII
CX Enlisted: 2011-10-28
2015-09-14 16:27
Fixnow said:
The balancer split up my squad. You said that it would keep squads together!
- The official balancer does NOT ever split up squads. If that happened to you then you were probably playing on a ranked server that was running a custom third party balancer ...

I play on PS4. The balancer has split up a squad after a round. And it happens every time you set your squad to private. We had 3,4, and a full squad of 5. And after every round it would pull at least one of us out of the squad. It may be just a bug and should be fixed IMO.

Why can't the balancer keep platoons together? MOHWF was able to do it.
SecondAmendmnt
Enlisted: 2013-10-29
2015-09-14 18:19
I have seen squad mates taken out of squad on Official servers by this balancer.

Also many conquest players like single map servers, but don't want to play as same faction five games in a row.

I like competition, but this balancer has put even more bottom feeders that sit at your own base C4ing their own teams vehicles on my team now which drags your team down. Those types deserve being on the other team getting stomped.
mpls_big_daddy
US Enlisted: 2013-12-11
2015-09-15 00:49
It's trash. Every moron team I get out on: they won't even leave the spawn. As far as I can see, I am being punished for trying to win the game, the previous round. So I get switched to the moron team.
And then I try to win, because frankly, it's in my nature.
And then I get punished for being top dog on the losing team. How do I get punished? Stay on the loser team who C4 our own vehicles. Who likes to spin around in the spawn.

You need to change the lowest common denominator. Because it's too low.

The only conclusion I can come to is: lone wolves will be punished. The only way to win, AND BE REWARDED FOR TRYING VERY HARD TO WIN, is to team stack the server. And to continue to platoon stack, team stack, friend stack.

Team stack to be rewarded for mics and team play, and all newbies to be wrecked over and over and over. Will do Dice, will do.
Ban rock but paper fine. - Scissors
Out0fAmmo
US Enlisted: 2013-02-20
2015-09-15 01:09
My main complaint was getting split up from my squad and placed on the losing team "just in time to lose". After reading the FAQ, it makes sense that those servers were running 3rd-party balancers. Another pet peeve of mine is when a server goes crazy trying to "Autobalance" 30 vs. 32 players, as if that one player would make any significant difference.
currentaffairs
Enlisted: 2015-01-30
2015-09-15 01:19
Def needs to be more aggresive, tired of unbalanced rounds
mpls_big_daddy
US Enlisted: 2013-12-11
2015-09-16 12:48
I was able to get several rounds in yesterday.

Upon joining the first round, I was notified that I was being moved to RUS because of my skill. I luckily joined at the beginning of the round, so it was full tickets. I moved from squad to squad, to find only snipers who refused to designate bases. So I made my own squad and lone wolfed, this round.

http://battlelog.battlefield.com/bf4/battlereport/show/2/643888508059722752/945463614/ [battlelog.battlefield.com]

There were a couple guys running around in a LAV, trying to cap. I was the only other capper.

The second match, still, no one joined my squad. So I again, lone wolfed it, designating flags for myself.

http://battlelog.battlefield.com/bf4/battlereport/show/2/643894512696632320/945463614/ [battlelog.battlefield.com]


The third match, I was moved, to the other team, where I was luckily put in a squad, who had an awesome leader. Our squad was top three scorers, plus one guy who joined late, down the boards. We worked our asses off.

http://battlelog.battlefield.com/bf4/battlereport/show/2/643905715737165824/945463614/ [battlelog.battlefield.com]

But still couldn't pull it off. Dice, please, look at the score gap, and how many on the team are in the lower echelon, between the guys who are trying to win, versus whatever the hell they are doing.

***This is the crux of the issue: the score gap, in the list of players, is quite obvious. You take the guys based on skill, switch them and then you expect them to carry repeatedly.


I posted this in response to a thread in 360.
Ban rock but paper fine. - Scissors
ZombieP1ow
US Enlisted: 2011-10-25
2015-09-16 13:55
team balance only punishes the good players, REMOVE IT.

I've quit more games in the past week than ever before because I'm not going to waste my time and effort being the only guy trying to win while the scrubs that play to lose bravely hide behind mommy's skirt in the home spawn.
this is the exact reason I sold BF3 and stopped playing it altogether.

Doing good = getting switched to scrubs
Doing bad = no effect.

base it on SPM, that's more of an indication of play style than skill (just remove the stupid TB)


skill is the most broken stat there is


and your research is either heavily biased or extremely flawed.
"Now that's a name I haven't heard since I cut your dad's legs off and threw him in a volcano..." -Ben Kenobi
mpls_big_daddy
US Enlisted: 2013-12-11
2015-09-16 14:07
ZombieP1ow said:
...and your research is either heavily biased or extremely flawed.


I believe that it is both. Another small minority, with the largest voice.

Here ya go everyone: https://www.govdelivery.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/participation-medal.jpg [govdelivery.com]
Ban rock but paper fine. - Scissors
Llordus
PL Enlisted: 2011-10-25
2015-09-19 14:03
ZombieP1ow said:
team balance only punishes the good players, REMOVE IT.

I've quit more games in the past week than ever before because I'm not going to waste my time and effort being the only guy trying to win while the scrubs that play to lose bravely hide behind mommy's skirt in the home spawn.
this is the exact reason I sold BF3 and stopped playing it altogether.

Doing good = getting switched to scrubs
Doing bad = no effect.



I couldn't say it in a better way. Remove this stupid ballancing thing you added, dice. I am tired of losing the game beause I was switched to team full of morons without any understanding, what rush mode is about.
Not to mention, that rush mode makes sense only if you play the same map twice - as attacker and as defender. But it is not possible anymore because of this stupid ballancer. At the beginning 99% of my games were defending ones, now (I guess some another crap server update?) 99% of my games are attacking ones. This is so impossibly stupid....
Mamba334
US Enlisted: 2014-02-11
2015-09-20 15:22
1) Consider encouraging players to disable the BF4 option for SQUAD WITH JOINING FRIEND. This will stop most of the balance issues. When you have 5 people from the same clan click on each other, then this is causing issues too.

2) Another reason that a 10 vs 16 server might remain unbalanced is due to the BF4 in-game Option called SQUAD WITH JOINING FRIEND. If a friend joins on you and there is no room in your current squad or your current squad is locked, you will be moved to a new squad and your friend added to that squad. This move could happen immediately, or it could be delayed until later in the round, or it could be delayed all the way to the beginning of the next round. If the move happens after MULTIbalancer has balanced the teams, teams could become unbalanced. That means only the bottom half of each team is available for moving. If all 8 of those players on the team of 16 have clan tags in the same squad, none of them will be moved. That means the pool of players than can be moved for balance is zero, thus, no balancing. If a lot of friends join on a friend, say 5 friends joining on 1, all 5 of those friends will be added to one team. That can throw off the balance very quickly, and even if MULTIbalancer balances teams to fix this, the delay in moving friends together into a new squad could switch all the players back to join their friends, unbalancing the teams again. Finally, if all those friends have the same clan tag or some other exclusion applies, they won't be moved by MULTIbalancer at all, leaving the team lopsided.

A lot of servers run a plugin called, Multibalancer, and have it set to fix these issues. The issues with balance plugins is that people want to stack the teams with their buddies and steamroll servers and then when the balancers settings kick in to make the game more fair for all, people get mad. Then you have the ones who only want to f up the game because they keep switching to the winning team. If you lose, just take the lost. No need in messing up the flow. We are running this plugin as well. I think the problem is the unstacking option. You can disable that option and use only the scrambler/balancer to avoid less ragers. Or use the unstack for a better game. So it's do you want to make your regulars happy with a fair game, or allow clans to steamroll your server? Your pick.
ZombieP1ow
US Enlisted: 2011-10-25
2015-09-23 12:22
playing CQ on Lancang, we were out numbered, but still winning by 100 tickets, next thing I know, we've lost the objectives, and team balancing has stacked the opposite team 12 to 8.

stupid game.

last time EA or DICE sees any money from me.

team balancer means DICE enhanced pubstacking to further cause people to put the game on the shelf.

in a month, it's only going to be the worst players playing because all the decent players will have quit altogether because it sucks getting penalized every f*cking game for playing well
"Now that's a name I haven't heard since I cut your dad's legs off and threw him in a volcano..." -Ben Kenobi
 
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